[T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

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[T] Turnabouts of the Father ★ 

Message par DWaM » Mer Nov 26, 2014 9:41 am



Notes
  • Play in Firefox!
  • Theoretically, since it doesn't have anything too complex, I don't see any reason why it couldn't run on v6 - but don't take my word for it, I haven't actually tested it in there.
  • You might experience some problems with music and for that, I apologize, but that's not my fault. I've switched over to using kiwi and noticed that there are times when the music just... doesn't load. If that happens, I think saving SHOULD do the trick.
  • This trial was produced in the span of 4 days (yeah, yeah, I'm bragging at this point...)

Credits
Spoiler : Credits :
Writer: DWaM
Sprites: mercurialSK (Ares Justice) and Ropfa (For the extra Upset!Apollo sprite)
Beta-Testing: kwando1313


Spoiler : Music List :


Walkthrough
Spoiler : Walkthrough :
Press through some of the statements to get a better idea of the crime itself and get all the evidence you'll be using from here on out
Present Crime Scene Info on Statement 14
Present the Autopsy Report
Select Dining Room Info -> Radio
Select "The culprit took it!"

Super-Present Key + Maid on Statement 21 (OR Statement 19)
Select "No contradictions" -> Select "Yes"
Super-Present Window + Friend on Statement 21 (OR Statement 18)

Super-Present Autopsy Report + Crime Scene Info on Statement 3
Select Medical File
Select The Ashtray
Super-Present Larry + Crime Scene Info on Statement 9
Select The Radio

Select "There is a major contradiction!"
Present Maya's Profile

(Note that you could've also gone first through the section with Friend + Window, then chosen "No Contradictions", THEN presented Maid + Key and then presented Kristoph's profile upon saying there's a contradiction)

Present Crime Scene Info
Select "Kristoph!"
Present Trucy's Profile
Select No

(Solution to the optional CE) Super-Present Phoenix + Window on Statement 6 (OR Phoenix + Larry on Statement 4)
Present Maya's Profile

Super-Present Key + Trucy on Statement 9

Super-Present Kristoph + Crime Scene Info on Statement 1 (OR Present Kristoph on Statement 1 -> Present Crime Scene Info)
Select The Shelf

Press all Statements

Press all Statements -> Initiate Supra-Objection
LIE - LIE - LIE - LIE - LIE - LIE - LIE
Present Thalassa + Crime Scene Info

Present Crime Scene Info
Present Larry's Profile
Dernière édition par DWaM le Jeu Août 10, 2017 2:27 pm, édité 11 fois.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par Blizdi » Mer Nov 26, 2014 10:12 am

Before I start playing this, I just want to say that I'm so glad you've decided on continuing with trial making. Even if yours were kind of dark, the stories were phenomenal and I'm glad I get to continue to experience your writing.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par RiksKing » Mer Nov 26, 2014 4:01 pm

Ohh, it's another trial of one of my favourite authors :D. I'll start playing it later today, you can expect some thoughts from me later this week^^
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par Gamer2002 » Mer Nov 26, 2014 9:47 pm

Spoiler : :
Using super objection to prove that if this wasn't suicide scenario the police would investigate it as a murder was overkill.
I've had to check the solution on Kristoph/Maya Cross-Examination because I've presented one evidence in wrong order ;P
Supra-objaction was unfair, imo. I know that the solution was intentionally crazy, but it was bit too crazy. And given that not only you still could suspect the witnesses and also be right about it...
And I know that this is AA court system, even set in alternative universe, but didn't Apollo do well enough to re-open the investigation and extend the trial? All witnesses are guilty is a crazy theory, but given how they acted on the trial with sudden all-suspicious 4th witness on the top, one more day could be given.

As for the story it was good. Anding was surprisingly happy, even if you couldn't stop yourself from making some sort of twist about it.
PS: Ares could have grayer hair, he looked more like Apollo's elder brother than his father.

Overall, it was fun. Limiting super-objection to just 2 evidences is sensible, though at one point forcing the player to use it was a forced complexity.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par DWaM » Mer Nov 26, 2014 10:25 pm

Responses in red.

Gamer2002 a écrit :
Spoiler : :
Using super objection to prove that if this wasn't suicide scenario the police would investigate it as a murder was overkill.

I will admit that's one of the arguably weakest ones. My first, intended solution was ultimately just Phoenix + Window, going by the "if I concluded it based on these impossible circumstances, imagine what would've police concluded if it was thought to be murder", thus showing that the probability of Phoenix being the culprit would've significantly gone up.

I've had to check the solution on Kristoph/Maya Cross-Examination because I've presented one evidence in wrong order ;P

Well... I still think the "true" contradiction there lies not necessarily with the evidence info itself (because nowhere in the actual statement is it SAID that he he saw it through the window or anything like that). The fact that he has knowledge of it is the problem; how he acquired it is secondary. It's actually one of the reasons why I made the super-objection itself entirely optional.

...That is, I'm assuming that's what you meant by "wrong order".


Supra-objaction was unfair, imo. I know that the solution was intentionally crazy, but it was bit too crazy. And given that not only you still could suspect the witnesses and also be right about it...

Actually, I'd say it's entirely fair. Just about roundabout in reaching the answer.

  • Since this is all from Ares' point of view, and given the fact that he stated that he wanted Apollo to eliminate "alternate possibilities" to ensure that only the Leviathan can arguably be the culprit (at least, in his head), you can assume that neither of the 4 suspects are part of his solution. Especially given the fact that it's stated earlier that the suicide victims have seemingly nothing in common -- one person, such as Thalassa, would be somewhat reasonable to overlook, but 4 people? In addition, you should, to some degree, consider the fact that the over-complicated story argument Franziska made does make sense to a point (there's no reason to expect the player to assume it really was made that way for the sake of being over-complicated). And heck, you have to keep in mind that Ares is pretty much straight-on accusing Thalassa - the question then becomes merely of how. Since he believes she murdered his wife using supposedly the same method and since he seems to have figured it out AND since he doesn't seem to react to any of the 4 people and easily dismisses them on the first chance he gets, it's obvious that they aren't connected to "the trick" that he's after.
  • The fact that Thalassa is a magician and - especially a hypnotist is something that was brought up on multiple occasions (twice before the trial and once during the final CE). Ares makes a remark (that Apollo just assumes is a joke) about mind control in the lobby (but, in actuality, he's deadly serious). The fact that the radio was somehow involved in the whole thing is something that Ares hinted at during his own testimony (that there was an object constantly found on the scenes and that he believes it to be relevant to the killings). Naturally, I can't assume that the player memorized this information or that they would really present the radio, so I opened a sort of side-contradiction with the "Grimoire", thus forcing the player to present the Crime Scene Info.
  • The testimony itself strongly implies that an indirect method of murder was ultimately used (there are essentially two statements directed towards it). What I could add is a statement like "I have an alibi, I had a show on the night of Butz's death" or something to that regard, if that would help matters.
  • Now, one of the things you might say is that Thalassa had hypnotized not Larry, but one of the people in the house to commit murder, but consider this: How would the trigger be activated? Since it would need to look like a suicide with specific conditions (remember, this is all from Ares' POV), they would need to be shot. Could she really keep them in such a trance that they could do all those complicated things? And even then -- you COULD claim that she successfully did that, but at most it could've been one person. If that's the case, the only possible way for it to be true is if everyone else lied. Since this is something that had to have happened several times, how would she have ensured that it would've been the case? How could she have known everyone would lie for the sake of this one person?


And I know that this is AA court system, even set in alternative universe, but didn't Apollo do well enough to re-open the investigation and extend the trial? All witnesses are guilty is a crazy theory, but given how they acted on the trial with sudden all-suspicious 4th witness on the top, one more day could be given.

But the thing is - a day wouldn't have changed anything. The death had been thoroughly investigated by the police and Apollo had no evidence to what he was saying. In addition, his theory seemed to be weak, especially given Franziska's remarks. The truth is that the entire trial was unwinnable for him from the very beginning. Ares didn't actually care for it all that much - he just wanted Apollo to get through every single possible theory and then used the first chance he got to present his own solution. Well, that's what he says, anyway. (In truth, he was just looking for an excuse because he subconsciously wanted Apollo to see that he wasn't guilty for his wife's suicide - so regardless of what Apollo had done, he would've eventually jumped in).

As for the story it was good. Anding was surprisingly happy, even if you couldn't stop yourself from making some sort of twist about it.
PS: Ares could have grayer hair, he looked more like Apollo's elder brother than his father.

Not something I really wanted to do (given that the sprite isn't mine) and especially considering that I don't think simply giving him grey hair would've been enough. Gray hair doesn't really... make anime-looking characters look young. Just makes them look like they have grey hair...

Overall, it was fun. Limiting super-objection to just 2 evidences is sensible, though at one point forcing the player to use it was a forced complexity.


In any case, thanks for playing, glad you enjoyed it.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par Spyromed » Mer Nov 26, 2014 11:41 pm

Gamer2002 a écrit :I've had to check the solution on Kristoph/Maya Cross-Examination because I've presented one evidence in wrong order ;P


I think he means getting the post-accusation testimony in the right order (though... there isn't actually a right order; they do both work). It could be thought that accusing The Maid before The Friend would have a different outcome to accusing them the other way around.

Spoiler : Thoughts with Spoilers Maybe :
.
Positives:

* The final and penultimate CEs were really great; the final CE had a "DanganRonpa ending" style approach where the mechanics of the game are changed a little bit for a fitting ending - in this case, getting HP back every time a statement was pressed. The penultimate had an excellent music choice, for one, and it was fun seeing that what initially seemed like the usual "the insane person was right the whole time" scenario subverted, allowing Apollo to give Ares just what he really deserved. Speaking of music, would it be possible to get a list of custom music used?
* Most of the difficulty was fair, too. I especially liked the supra-objection, which I never thought I'd say, because it actually used a load of clues dropped at the beginning of the case, like the radio broadcast and the fact that Lamiroir's a magician.
* The dialogue exchange about the Judge's daughter and the circus was the best.
* It was also nice to know that all four of those people DID in fact kill Larry in the end. ...And I also liked the minor fourth wall break at the end before all of that was explained. It was a good solution, overall. I always liked there being one major, central trick to a case.
* Though some things were left unexplained - how exactly Astro drove Apollo's mother to suicide, for one - they were all fairly minor, and the fact that most things were explained with only a few minor things left to ponder was something I liked. I think there was a similar situation with 999.
* Those final five or six frames were also pretty good, but I don't know if that's actually supposed to be seen. The player displayed "Game Over," but clicking the advance button again just carried the game on. Maybe that's just a V6 thing.

Negatives:

* There were a couple of times that the dialogue became a bit clichéd, for example, the "all I need... all I ever needed" one from Ares, but this was very sparse.
* The first present with the Crime Scene info on statement 14 was a little too difficult, largely because I was trying to point out culprits before that point. It tends to get to the point of overkill when there are over 20 statements, but in retrospect, the actual contradiction wasn't too bad, so maybe it's just me.
* It was a little on the short side, and the ending scene did feel just a little rushed while it explained that they all really did collaborate. It would've been nice to know the motives for those other than Maya.

Misc:

* Turnabouts of the Father kinda sounds like the whole case is being overshadowed by a cult / religion, led by The Father.
* A lot of the chracters, namely the four culprits, seemed quite OoC compared to their canon counterparts, especially when rebutting against Apollo's claims, but I understand it's an AU and that having OCs could have complicated it the case a bit more, having to learn all about those characters instead of the ones that already exist.
* The multiple witnesses testifying at once thing was something I came up with for the current comp. Damn. Now what will I do.
* And... since I did such a stellar job of asking this elsewhere - I'm not sure when, in-game time, the final CE takes place. I would've thought that if it were directly after the trial before it, Franziska or the Judge would've reacted to Ares getting on the Prosecutor bench and Thalassa testifying, so I'm vouching against that being the case.

Anyway, I liked this. I think I prefer Empty and Tomorrow, possibly because they were a little more fleshed out. I do wonder why you chose not to edit it to under 4,000 frames and submit it into the case comp, though.
Dernière édition par Spyromed le Jeu Nov 27, 2014 12:22 am, édité 4 fois.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par kwando1313 » Mer Nov 26, 2014 11:51 pm

DWaM would have to trim like... 600 frames. And there honestly isn't very much fat to cut out that would let it go to under 4k frames.




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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par DWaM » Jeu Nov 27, 2014 12:03 am

Replies still in red.
Spyromed a écrit :
Spoiler : Thoughts with Spoilers Maybe :
.
Positives:

* The final and penultimate CEs were really great; the final CE had a "DanganRonpa ending" style approach where the mechanics of the game are changed a little bit for a fitting ending - in this case, getting HP back every time a statement was pressed. The penultimate had an excellent music choice, for one, and it was fun seeing that what initially seemed like the usual "the insane person was right the whole time" scenario subverted, allowing Apollo to give Ares just what he really deserved. Speaking of music, would it be possible to get a list of custom music used?

The whole "getting HP thing" was more supposed to show how Ares viewed himself (how he felt like he was finally rising from the ashes and ready to defeat his demons - at least, that's how he viewed himself) and how desperate he really was to get that closure by putting everything on the line. I'll probably edit the OP with it sometime since there really isn't that much of it, yeah.

* Most of the difficulty was fair, too. I especially liked the supra-objection, which I never thought I'd say, because it actually used a load of clues dropped at the beginning of the case, like the radio broadcast and the fact that Lamiroir's a magician.

I think really the only testimony that didn't really work was Trucy's, mainly because it's extremely vague - not so much as to what you're supposed to show but how you're supposed to show it. I think that I chose a well enough method, but I still admit it's a bit obscure.

* The dialogue exchange about the Judge's daughter and the circus was the best.

eeyup

* It was also nice to know that all four of those people DID in fact kill Larry in the end. ...And I also liked the minor fourth wall break at the end before all of that was explained. It was a good solution, overall. I always liked there being one major, central trick to a case.
* Though some things were left unexplained - how exactly Astro drove Apollo's mother to suicide, for one - they were all fairly minor, and the fact that most things were explained with only a few minor things left to ponder was something I liked. I think there was a similar situation with 999.

Astro lol
But... it is explained several times how he did it. He cheated on her with Thalassa. Feeling betrayed and emotionally destroyed, she killed herself.


* Those final five or six frames were also pretty good, but I don't know if that's actually supposed to be seen. The player displayed "Game Over," but clicking the advance button again just carried the game on. Maybe that's just a V6 thing.

Probably a v6 thing, since that's the game over dialogue. I checked and there is an "End this trial" function before that, so...

Negatives:

* There were a couple of times that the dialogue became a bit clichéd, for example, the "all I need... all I ever needed" one from Ares, but this was very sparse. It tends to get to the point of overkill when there are over 20 statements, but in retrospect, the actual contradiction wasn't too bad, so maybe it's just me.

Yeah, I admit and those are arguably the ones where I got a bit lazy and just plowed through the scene. Character's emotional scenes are both the fastest and the most frustrating ones to write because you can't quite SAY what they're feeling - so what generally tends to happen is that I write almost like a stream of consciousness and when it gets out of hand... you kinda end up with that.

* The first present with the Crime Scene info on statement 14 was a little too difficult, largely because I was trying to point out culprits before that point.

Well, pointing to a trick wouldn't have worked - after all, for the time of the actual gunshot, they all had a perfect alibi. You first had to prove that the gunshot was faked before you even had a chance of accusing any people in the actual house.

* It was a little on the short side, and the ending scene did feel just a little rushed while it explained that they all really did collaborate. It would've been nice to know the motives for those other than Maya.

It was, generally speaking, a short story. It was always supposed to be tightly-paced and lead up to its conclusion. In truth, I originally didn't plan to even reveal the truth behind Larry's death and let the player believe whatever they wanted to, but then I realized that I already had a case with an extremely ambiguous ending, sooooooo

Misc:

* Turnabouts of the Father kinda sounds like the whole case is being overshadowed by a cult / religion, led by The Father.

Actually, it was sort of supposed to be a play on "Sins of the Father".

* A lot of the chracters, namely the four culprits, seemed quite OoC compared to their canon counterparts, especially when rebutting against Apollo's claims, but I understand it's an AU and that having OCs could have complicated it the case a bit more, having to learn all about those characters instead of the ones that already exist.

That was more or less all intentional. The canon characters were all there to force the player to unintentionally apply assumptions about them and pre-existing knowledge that couldn't really be applied. Their reactions are actually perfectly logical from their point of view - they don't know Apollo, after all. He's just some guy that's come along to screw everything up for them. Reaching the truth despite the fact that he has no basis for any of it.

* The multiple witnesses testifying at once thing was something I came up with for the current comp. Damn. Now what will I do.
* And... since I did such a stellar job of asking this elsewhere - I'm not sure when, in-game time, the final CE takes place. I would've thought that if it were directly after the trial before it, Franziska or the Judge would've reacted to Ares getting on the Prosecutor bench and Thalassa testifying, so I'm vouching against that being the case.

It isn't DIRECTLY after the trial, but shortly after everyone left (since it was only two people that needed to leave, anyway, it really wasn't that much of time wasted).

Anyway, I liked this. I think I prefer Empty and Tomorrow, possibly because they were a little more fleshed out. I do wonder why you chose not to edit it to under 4,000 frames and submit it into the case comp, though.

Because it's 4600 frames.


Well, thanks for playing and thanks for the review!
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par Bad Player » Jeu Nov 27, 2014 12:50 am

The last statement of the first testimony is really misleading, especially when coupled with the press conversation and placeholder profiles ~_~

EDIT: C'moooooooooooon.
Also I'm not sure why you have the standard "add more evidence/object" structure when you're always going to be presenting exactly 2 pieces of evidence in a super-objection

EDIT2:
Spoiler : :
Wouldn't it just be easier to say Nick looked through the window to see if Larry was there?

EDIT3:
Spoiler : :
Why can't I point out Nick is assuming the window was visible when Trucy entered the room by presenting the crime scene info, which says that both the chair and window are across from the door, so that the chair could've been blocking the view of the window?

EDIT4:
Spoiler : :
Kristoph seems like a reason for Nick to close the window, too... If the window was open, they would've doubted random passer-by. And who was the random passer-by at the time? Krissy! Krissy testifies that Nick didn't do it, Nick closes the window so Krissy doesn't come under suspicion, win-win.

EDIT5:
Spoiler : :
Sooooooo if we're saying Trucy was an accomplice, then doesn't the whole argument we made earlier about "Trucy's testimony backs up Maya's, so Krissy must be the liar"? If Trucy was the accomplice, why can't she be Maya's, rather than Nick's?

...Well, it got me the contradiction I needed to get, at least

EDIT6:
Spoiler : :
...I can't just present the crime scene info? I have to present Kristoph's profile first, and then the crime scene info?

(I gotta admit I like how Krissy's testimony was basically the exact same as Naota's, and then he made the exact same contradiction.)

EDIT7:
Spoiler : :
"Actually, I think I've done what I came here to do. I wasn't assigned with proving this wasn't suicide--I was just supposed to prove it was possible it wasn't a suicide, to let the investigation re-open. So there you have it. We can all go home, and the police can begin investigating the possibility of a conspiracy among the four of them. I admit there's no other explanation. I also admit that it's far-fetched--but again, it wasn't and isn't my job to prove that it's what happened or even was probably, just that it was a possibility."

EDIT8:
Spoiler : :
Okay, seriously? Presenting Larry's profile at the supra-objection causes it to fail? Earlier, when saying "Nick knew Larry would be in the room because Larry liked to listen to the radio!", we had to present Larry's profile to point out that he liked to listen to radio. Now, when presenting "You hypnotized him into suicide, which was possible because Larry liked to listen to the radio!", presenting his profile to point out he liked to listen to the radio causes it to fail?

EDIT9:
Spoiler : :
When Ares called Leviathan "he," my first thought actually was Larry.

...I thought he killed everyone by walking through walls.

(Then when Ares mentioned "a certain object" at every crime scene, I figured it was going to the hypnosis solution. Although I'm glad that it wasn't it, in the end.)

The logic got a bit un-manageable near the end, and there is a bit of tweaking you should probably do with the evidence you can present. But this was a fun little case, with probably the most solid story so far.

(Although I actually preferred it without that final final scene.)

EDIT10:
DWaM a écrit :
Spoiler : :
* The first present with the Crime Scene info on statement 14 was a little too difficult, largely because I was trying to point out culprits before that point.

Well, pointing to a trick wouldn't have worked - after all, for the time of the actual gunshot, they all had a perfect alibi. You first had to prove that the gunshot was faked before you even had a chance of accusing any people in the actual house.

Spoiler : :
Then add in custom conversations if the player tries to present one of the profiles there before super-objections are unlocked--
Polly: OBJECTION! Actually, there IS a way the locked room could've been made. If the killer was--
Franzy: OBJECTION! I don't care whose name you're about to say! When the gunshot was heard, Phoenix and Trucy were right outside the door, and Maya was in the dining room! Even without the locked room, they all have perfect alibis!
Polly: (I-I guess she has a point there... I suppose I need to figure out a way to explain those alibis first.)
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par DWaM » Jeu Nov 27, 2014 11:48 am

Alright, responses in red.

Bad Player a écrit :The last statement of the first testimony is really misleading, especially when coupled with the press conversation and placeholder profiles ~_~

EDIT: C'moooooooooooon.
Also I'm not sure why you have the standard "add more evidence/object" structure when you're always going to be presenting exactly 2 pieces of evidence in a super-objection

I tried having a system of only two pieces of evidence but it was really, really, annoying to do, time-consuming and overall just wasted frames.

EDIT2:
Spoiler : :
Wouldn't it just be easier to say Nick looked through the window to see if Larry was there?

He could have, but that's not his point. For Nick's plan to work, Larry had to be in the dining room (for the sake of the radio). You could argue he could've just killed him and put the radio in another place, but then the fact that the radio was elsewhere would've been extremely suspicious. His question isn't "How did I know he was there?" but "How did I ENSURE he would be there?"


EDIT3:
Spoiler : :
Why can't I point out Nick is assuming the window was visible when Trucy entered the room by presenting the crime scene info, which says that both the chair and window are across from the door, so that the chair could've been blocking the view of the window?

Alright, added an optional present for that. Franziska dismisses it because the window was a little higher up - thus meaning that the chair wouldn't have obstructed it.


EDIT4:
Spoiler : :
Kristoph seems like a reason for Nick to close the window, too... If the window was open, they would've doubted random passer-by. And who was the random passer-by at the time? Krissy! Krissy testifies that Nick didn't do it, Nick closes the window so Krissy doesn't come under suspicion, win-win.

Optional present added, Apollo clarifies that accusing Kristoph of anything doesn't really work. He earlier showed that Kristoph lied, thus meaning that he wasn't really on the scene, which allowed him to continue to accuse Phoenix. He can't take it all back and claim that Kristoph was somehow the one who did, after all and was there - especially given the lack of proof to accuse him. If he WAS there, he has nothing to suggest he was anything other than a random passer-by. Hence, no motive.


EDIT5:
Spoiler : :
Sooooooo if we're saying Trucy was an accomplice, then doesn't the whole argument we made earlier about "Trucy's testimony backs up Maya's, so Krissy must be the liar"? If Trucy was the accomplice, why can't she be Maya's, rather than Nick's?

Trucy + Maya working on their own doesn't really work if you assume Nick isn't on it, too (it's covered near the end, when Franziska "breaks down" Apollo's theory. The only other possible way of suggesting that is that they were all in on it (which eventually does happen, but for the sake of story structure a little after accusing that she worked with Nick).

...Well, it got me the contradiction I needed to get, at least

EDIT6:
Spoiler : :
...I can't just present the crime scene info? I have to present Kristoph's profile first, and then the crime scene info?

*Sigh* Fine, then. Added in that you can present the info first.

(I gotta admit I like how Krissy's testimony was basically the exact same as Naota's, and then he made the exact same contradiction.)

EDIT7:
Spoiler : :
"Actually, I think I've done what I came here to do. I wasn't assigned with proving this wasn't suicide--I was just supposed to prove it was possible it wasn't a suicide, to let the investigation re-open. So there you have it. We can all go home, and the police can begin investigating the possibility of a conspiracy among the four of them. I admit there's no other explanation. I also admit that it's far-fetched--but again, it wasn't and isn't my job to prove that it's what happened or even was probably, just that it was a possibility."

Added a bit near the end where Franziska clarifies that a re-investigation would've eventually turned up nothing, just like it did the first time. There was nothing to look into between the 4 of them because they found nothing the first time. At BEST they could find Kristoph's story to be questionable, but then the issue of probability regarding such a complicated story comes back up. There's just no hard evidence. She admits that she saw the trial as unwinnable by Apollo because of that.

EDIT8:
Spoiler : :
Okay, seriously? Presenting Larry's profile at the supra-objection causes it to fail? Earlier, when saying "Nick knew Larry would be in the room because Larry liked to listen to the radio!", we had to present Larry's profile to point out that he liked to listen to radio. Now, when presenting "You hypnotized him into suicide, which was possible because Larry liked to listen to the radio!", presenting his profile to point out he liked to listen to the radio causes it to fail?

Alright, I put in for it to be possible to present Larry's profile.

EDIT9:
Spoiler : :
When Ares called Leviathan "he," my first thought actually was Larry.

...I thought he killed everyone by walking through walls.

(Then when Ares mentioned "a certain object" at every crime scene, I figured it was going to the hypnosis solution. Although I'm glad that it wasn't it, in the end.)

The logic got a bit un-manageable near the end, and there is a bit of tweaking you should probably do with the evidence you can present. But this was a fun little case, with probably the most solid story so far.

(Although I actually preferred it without that final final scene.)

WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE WANT FROM ME ASDASDASGFASD

EDIT10:
DWaM a écrit :
Spoiler : :
* The first present with the Crime Scene info on statement 14 was a little too difficult, largely because I was trying to point out culprits before that point.

Well, pointing to a trick wouldn't have worked - after all, for the time of the actual gunshot, they all had a perfect alibi. You first had to prove that the gunshot was faked before you even had a chance of accusing any people in the actual house.

Spoiler : :
Then add in custom conversations if the player tries to present one of the profiles there before super-objections are unlocked--
Polly: OBJECTION! Actually, there IS a way the locked room could've been made. If the killer was--
Franzy: OBJECTION! I don't care whose name you're about to say! When the gunshot was heard, Phoenix and Trucy were right outside the door, and Maya was in the dining room! Even without the locked room, they all have perfect alibis!
Polly: (I-I guess she has a point there... I suppose I need to figure out a way to explain those alibis first.)


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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par Reecer6 » Ven Nov 28, 2014 12:05 pm

I'm going to assume, despite everyone else just talking about super objections, that I won't be committing some faux pas by making a SoC here. Also, I hope this isn't in some canon I should already know, because I haven't played any of the rest of your cases. :/

Spoiler : SoC :
*Hey, not ALL Leviathans are that bad! If you would just take a look at this fighting game...
*Out of literally every AA character, I somehow guessed that ??? would be Franziska.
*So, I'll just assume that this girl with the thick Borginian accent who is singing the BGM is wholly unrelated to this magician's character?
*Now now, Apollo, say "Goddarn," this is only rated M.
*Contrary to a previous point, this music proves Ares is totally Zero.
*The defendant in this case... is YOU, APOLLO! ...I guess that means Apollo's also the victim too. Rip in peace, you were fine.
*Worst case scenario, our client can't actually get put on death row, or even be given so much as a ticket! Suicide really is the perfect crime.
*Dark brooding sinister moody thought-to-cause-a-suicide man is actually on our side! What a twist! My emotions: PLAYED WITH.
*Oh, good riddance, Larry.
*...This is a weird canon. I can't imagine my soul being trapped in Larry's shell.
*Oh god... It never hit me before how awkward Larry's mouth looks on the profile image. It's so scrunched up against his nose!
*Franziska can ALWAYS do that, Justice. It's against court law for her to NOT, really.
*Thank you for rebutting my existence in this court room, Franziska.
*Damn, there was no butler, there goes my case. Also, Larry having a wife? Please. This witness cannot exist, and thus is the murderer creating a fake alibi for being at the house.
*Jeeze, does this report detail the status of every single nail and board in the house? You shouldn't be writing so much about a building. I mean, you should, because evidence, but who's paying you?
*Are these cupboards to the left of the entrance FROM the entrance, or from the window? I feel this will be incredibly important.
*I can't believe a book visited Larry! What a world we live in! Also, there's Ares there.
*Wooah, Apollo, taking a page from Godot's book, aren't ya? What a pile of refuse, really.
*Okay, it might be that the maid had actually taken the key from Larry, and then pretended she found it later? She could have still very easily locked the door. But I can't present the maid to the locking the door statement, so that's probably wrong...
*Or, it could be that the radio could have simply PLAYED a gunshot sound!
*...And... That's correct! Woohoo! Larry must've been listening to that song that always follows Thalassa, sans drums for some reason. Maybe it's a popular radio edit.
*Franziska: "Make sure to site which paragraph of this document you're using as evidence in MLA format, Apollo Justice."
*Okay, so I can't just add a person to the objection I've already made...
*Niiiice! It wasn't in the statement I was thinking of, and it was basically using all of the evidence that was already mentioned in it, but my previous thought was correct! I am literally a genius.
*oh no trucyyyyyyy you're a murderer or at least an accomplice
*oh no miaaaaaaaa you have some remix of dahlia's theme as your theme, which means you're actually the murderer
*OH NO LARRYYYYYYY ACTUALLY MANAGED TO CONVINCE MAYA TO MARRY HIM
*Wouldn't there have to be some incest involved there? Also, the Feys always kept their maiden names, I don't feel like BUTZ should be any more special for being so talented and literally the best kurain medium ever.
*It doesn't look like anything contradicts this testimony, other than all of Trucy's testimony probably, so I'll step away from this risk.
*Wait, no! I'm not going back to THIS monster of an opening statement. But... literally none of the evidence that are even slightly related to this case work with that, so it looks like I'm going to have to find a different super objection.
*But of course, I just had to do the same exact thing to the statement right next to the last one.
*oh no wrightooooooooooooo you're, uh, dekiller i guess, according to the music? but you're not actually the killer then. it's engarde again.
*A gold star? I didn't know I was talking to Aristotle Means in a beanie.
*It's probably just that Trucy was in cahoots with Nick, if you ask me. It'd make all of this very easy.
*Following this co-council convo more, Nick could've given Larry the tape, which would've probably insured that he'd stay in the dining room the whole time.
*THE RADIO AGAIN. I AM JUST BRILLIANT.
*But I guess I need to find solutions for all of these. Sigh. Hmm... smoking and open windows are probably connected, in some way, I guess. Larry might smoke? Maybe Nick? Whatever, there's definitely an ash tray here. But it doesn't look like that's it.
*Whatever, I've been playing this a while and it's late, I'll do a part 2 later.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par DWaM » Ven Nov 28, 2014 12:25 pm

GO MY SWEET REDS GO

Reecer6 a écrit :I'm going to assume, despite everyone else just talking about super objections, that I won't be committing some faux pas by making a SoC here. Also, I hope this isn't in some canon I should already know, because I haven't played any of the rest of your cases. :/

Nah, don't worry, you don't need to be familiar with Grimdark Dwamland to play this case. Really, none of my cases are set in my own established canon, so you should be good to go.

Spoiler : SoC :
*Hey, not ALL Leviathans are that bad! If you would just take a look at this fighting game...
*Out of literally every AA character, I somehow guessed that ??? would be Franziska.
*So, I'll just assume that this girl with the thick Borginian accent who is singing the BGM is wholly unrelated to this magician's character?
what no i dont know what ur talking about
*Now now, Apollo, say "Goddarn," this is only rated M.
LIGHT swearing? hoh hoh hoh child, this is a DWaM production
*Contrary to a previous point, this music proves Ares is totally Zero.
*The defendant in this case... is YOU, APOLLO! ...I guess that means Apollo's also the victim too. Rip in peace, you were fine.
You know the weird thing is that I had an idea way back for a suicide trial and the plot twist would've been that the victim was Apollo the entire time. ...From the future.
*Worst case scenario, our client can't actually get put on death row, or even be given so much as a ticket! Suicide really is the perfect crime.
*Dark brooding sinister moody thought-to-cause-a-suicide man is actually on our side! What a twist! My emotions: PLAYED WITH.
im a master do u not kno bro
*Oh, good riddance, Larry.
*...This is a weird canon. I can't imagine my soul being trapped in Larry's shell.
*Oh god... It never hit me before how awkward Larry's mouth looks on the profile image. It's so scrunched up against his nose!
*Franziska can ALWAYS do that, Justice. It's against court law for her to NOT, really.
*Thank you for rebutting my existence in this court room, Franziska.
*Damn, there was no butler, there goes my case. Also, Larry having a wife? Please. This witness cannot exist, and thus is the murderer creating a fake alibi for being at the house.
*Jeeze, does this report detail the status of every single nail and board in the house? You shouldn't be writing so much about a building. I mean, you should, because evidence, but who's paying you?
*Are these cupboards to the left of the entrance FROM the entrance, or from the window? I feel this will be incredibly important.
From the entrance. It's stated when it's compared in contrast to something like the window.
*I can't believe a book visited Larry! What a world we live in! Also, there's Ares there.
*Wooah, Apollo, taking a page from Godot's book, aren't ya? What a pile of refuse, really.
*Okay, it might be that the maid had actually taken the key from Larry, and then pretended she found it later? She could have still very easily locked the door. But I can't present the maid to the locking the door statement, so that's probably wrong...
It's not wrong, but the thing is that it's not exactly the right statement for it, as you assumed. Still -- I edited the trial to take this line of thinking into account.
*Or, it could be that the radio could have simply PLAYED a gunshot sound!
*...And... That's correct! Woohoo! Larry must've been listening to that song that always follows Thalassa, sans drums for some reason. Maybe it's a popular radio edit.
*Franziska: "Make sure to site which paragraph of this document you're using as evidence in MLA format, Apollo Justice."
*Okay, so I can't just add a person to the objection I've already made...
*Niiiice! It wasn't in the statement I was thinking of, and it was basically using all of the evidence that was already mentioned in it, but my previous thought was correct! I am literally a genius.
*oh no trucyyyyyyy you're a murderer or at least an accomplice
*oh no miaaaaaaaa you have some remix of dahlia's theme as your theme, which means you're actually the murderer
*OH NO LARRYYYYYYY ACTUALLY MANAGED TO CONVINCE MAYA TO MARRY HIM
*Wouldn't there have to be some incest involved there? Also, the Feys always kept their maiden names, I don't feel like BUTZ should be any more special for being so talented and literally the best kurain medium ever.
Nah, Larry's like special. He isn't part of the Fey clan but he can still pull of the Kurain channeling technique. What, you thought it was all in BLOOD? pfffffffffffffffffffffff
*It doesn't look like anything contradicts this testimony, other than all of Trucy's testimony probably, so I'll step away from this risk.
*Wait, no! I'm not going back to THIS monster of an opening statement. But... literally none of the evidence that are even slightly related to this case work with that, so it looks like I'm going to have to find a different super objection.
*But of course, I just had to do the same exact thing to the statement right next to the last one.
*oh no wrightooooooooooooo you're, uh, dekiller i guess, according to the music? but you're not actually the killer then. it's engarde again.
Ace assassin, reporting for duty, sir.
*A gold star? I didn't know I was talking to Aristotle Means in a beanie.
*It's probably just that Trucy was in cahoots with Nick, if you ask me. It'd make all of this very easy.
*Following this co-council convo more, Nick could've given Larry the tape, which would've probably insured that he'd stay in the dining room the whole time.
*THE RADIO AGAIN. I AM JUST BRILLIANT.
*But I guess I need to find solutions for all of these. Sigh. Hmm... smoking and open windows are probably connected, in some way, I guess. Larry might smoke? Maybe Nick? Whatever, there's definitely an ash tray here. But it doesn't look like that's it.
Since Phoenix would've had to have caused whatever forced the window to be open, it's safe to assume that he was the one who did it - not Larry. But as such, it's also unnecessary to super-present Phoenix's profile into anything. You need to show something else... Something that shows he could've been 100% on the money that what he was planning would work.
*Whatever, I've been playing this a while and it's late, I'll do a part 2 later.
Well, looking forward to it!
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par Reecer6 » Sam Nov 29, 2014 2:33 am

Part II time, I guess!
Spoiler : SoC :
*I've just noticed Thalassa has a radio show, so that'll probably be important. The actual killer was someone who never was even within 5 miles of the house.
*I'm stuck, so time to do a classic "instead of why larry kept the window open, what about why larry couldn't CLOSE the window?"
*That mindset really didn't help me, but, I actually took a bit to look carefully through the autopsy, and I had totally forgotten about the breathing problem. I somehow remembered that his lung tissue was damaged, but not that. But that isn't the solution? I thought that was great!
*I give up for now, time for the second point. Maybe the body positioned in such a way in the chair to block the window being open? No...
*Unrelatedly, I bet that the burn marks on the body were faked with the cigarettes from the ashtray, given the vague wording in the autopsy.
*For some reason I went back to the first part, and for some reason I was supposed to present the crime scene details along with the autopsy??
*Ah... I had to combine that with my first idea. But it seemed like so much of a stretch!
*OH NO IT'S KRISTOOPPPPPHH HE'S THE REAL KILLER CASE CLOSED
*Considering there would be no point in stepping forward if he were the killer, Kristoph... must not actually be the killer. Wow.
*I remember Maya definitely said she was in the garden until 9:35, so that's a contradiction, right? It is! I have converged the timelines.
*I've clearly gone down the right path in accusing Trucy again, people don't just throw testimonies at you if you've got it wrong.
*Okay, so if that happened, and they saw the murder scene so carefully fixed with the gun in his hand, they would assume it was Maya. But that's not working, neither is that they'd still think it's suicide, not like that would work in the slightest.
*Maybe I'm not supposed to object to the statement, maybe to the next one? Given the tape trick, it could still be Wright. ...Nope.
*Hey, Kristoph said he met Nick as he was entering the house, this is a pretty big stretch but he might've wanted to protect... not even going to try that one.
*I've been at this for an hour according to the saves... I'm going to have to look at the walkthrough for this.
*That's what I have to do? I don't understand? Is it because they talked in there at some point before the murder? But Trucy was the last one to see Larry alive?
*Wait, no, how does that have to do with what I presented? I was thinking it was because it couldn't perfectly fit the MO but I had no way to allude to that, like having a case file of the previous 7 or 6 suicides.
*The motive in Maya's profile has been pretty obvious for a while, but I kind of didn't think any motive outside "To continue a serial murder" would actually count. So, inheritance is the motive, I guess!
*This would be a great time for Apollo to be able to Perceive something.
*Can't you guys just all testify to why I'm so wrong at once, if you want to keep butting in? Sheesh, just hang on.
*...I was thinking, up until now, that LARRY was a legal advisor, alongside being a spirit medium, and that NICK was his client. It was the other way around the whole time!
*This is a toughie... Maya could always ALSO be an accomplice but I don't have a way of saying that.
*Ack, I think the only things I can really present to given the pressing convos are the first two statements. Can I just have a hint? <:/
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par DWaM » Sam Nov 29, 2014 8:19 pm

Don't really have that much to respond to here, I'm afraid.

Reecer6 a écrit :Part II time, I guess!
Spoiler : SoC :
*I've just noticed Thalassa has a radio show, so that'll probably be important. The actual killer was someone who never was even within 5 miles of the house.
*I'm stuck, so time to do a classic "instead of why larry kept the window open, what about why larry couldn't CLOSE the window?"
*That mindset really didn't help me, but, I actually took a bit to look carefully through the autopsy, and I had totally forgotten about the breathing problem. I somehow remembered that his lung tissue was damaged, but not that. But that isn't the solution? I thought that was great!
*I give up for now, time for the second point. Maybe the body positioned in such a way in the chair to block the window being open? No...
Actually, that is possible to suggest if you super-presenting Window + Crime Scene info (which contains information on the chair) on the "So, the maid would've immediately
noticed that it still wasn't closed
upon entering the room."

*Unrelatedly, I bet that the burn marks on the body were faked with the cigarettes from the ashtray, given the vague wording in the autopsy.
*For some reason I went back to the first part, and for some reason I was supposed to present the crime scene details along with the autopsy??
The autopsy report ensures that Nick had a reason would be 100% that the window would be opened if he smoked - and the ashtray proved that. The lung damage wasn't the result of what Phoenix had done - it was a condition Larry was diagnosed with long before the incident took place.
*Ah... I had to combine that with my first idea. But it seemed like so much of a stretch!
*OH NO IT'S KRISTOOPPPPPHH HE'S THE REAL KILLER CASE CLOSED
*Considering there would be no point in stepping forward if he were the killer, Kristoph... must not actually be the killer. Wow.
*I remember Maya definitely said she was in the garden until 9:35, so that's a contradiction, right? It is! I have converged the timelines.
*I've clearly gone down the right path in accusing Trucy again, people don't just throw testimonies at you if you've got it wrong.
*Okay, so if that happened, and they saw the murder scene so carefully fixed with the gun in his hand, they would assume it was Maya. But that's not working, neither is that they'd still think it's suicide, not like that would work in the slightest.
*Maybe I'm not supposed to object to the statement, maybe to the next one? Given the tape trick, it could still be Wright. ...Nope.
*Hey, Kristoph said he met Nick as he was entering the house, this is a pretty big stretch but he might've wanted to protect... not even going to try that one.
*I've been at this for an hour according to the saves... I'm going to have to look at the walkthrough for this.
*That's what I have to do? I don't understand? Is it because they talked in there at some point before the murder? But Trucy was the last one to see Larry alive?
Admittedly, it's one of the weaker ones - the alternative (the "OR" one) makes much more sense in retrospect).
*Wait, no, how does that have to do with what I presented? I was thinking it was because it couldn't perfectly fit the MO but I had no way to allude to that, like having a case file of the previous 7 or 6 suicides.
You can't exactly do that because Apollo doesn't actually know anything about the past. Ares does, but he didn't tell Apollo crap.
*The motive in Maya's profile has been pretty obvious for a while, but I kind of didn't think any motive outside "To continue a serial murder" would actually count. So, inheritance is the motive, I guess!
*This would be a great time for Apollo to be able to Perceive something.
*Can't you guys just all testify to why I'm so wrong at once, if you want to keep butting in? Sheesh, just hang on.
*...I was thinking, up until now, that LARRY was a legal advisor, alongside being a spirit medium, and that NICK was his client. It was the other way around the whole time!
*This is a toughie... Maya could always ALSO be an accomplice but I don't have a way of saying that.
*Ack, I think the only things I can really present to given the pressing convos are the first two statements. Can I just have a hint? <:/
There's no point looking for a motive - the majority of Maya's testimony is focused around the "even if" part. What you need is to come up with another theory - another possible explanation for the Phoenix + Trucy theory. Assume that what was stated is true - that Maya wasn't in on it and that thus, her point stands. Is there an alternate chain of events that could've been done, then? (It still has both Trucy and Phoenix as the culprits and it resolves the problem of the window while ensuring that a locked room exists). Assume that Phoenix still DID enter the room through the window (since it would've been extremely risky to try sneaking into the house and hoping that the door wasn't locked or even that Larry would let him in if it was). What could've happened after that that's different?
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ● 

Message par Zohar the Shiny » Dim Nov 30, 2014 12:02 am

Hah, this was a fun little trial!
Spoiler : :
During the final testimony, I first thought that Thalassa was actually a spirit being permanently summoned, and that Larry and the female "Leviathan victims" had summoned her and then "killed themselves." How did she do it with the other male victims? Magical mystery methods! After all, the Grimoire could probably walk through walls! She's just that cool. :atmey:
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