[T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by DWaM »

@Ferdie:
Well, uh... Thanks! (Not... really sure how to respond to all of that, since it's more directed towards people that... aren't me, weirdly enough. Well, the some writing problems are, but that's something I was sort of aware of already.)

Btw, the trial is ~4700 frames long now, so... I don't see how it could've gone into the comp. XP Plus, considering when I'd finished it, I probably wouldn't have been in the mood to let it sit for like a month without any feedback (which... sort of explains why I sent out Cascade for beta-testing to so many people).

Anyway, due to popular demand, here's the list of music used:
Spoiler : Music List :
Prologue ~ The Leviathan (The One Who Dwells Within by Peter Gundry)
Cross-Examination ~ All For One (Judgement Dance by Nemesis Theory)
Cross-Examination ~ Ares' Conclusion (The Devil's Grasp by Peter Gundry)
Cross-Examination ~ The Fallen God (Blood of the Vikings by Peter Gundry)
Supra-Objection (So, um... It's supposed to be Reduced Occult Moon from 11eyes, but I used a different version which... I don't remember how I came across. ^^" This is the link to the version I used.)
Epilogue ~ Everything will be Fine (Requiem from Umineko)
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by NihilisticNinja »

Just thought I'd chime in with my two cents on this one.
Spoiler : Review (Spoiler-heavy) :
You know, as I've read more mysteries and played more fancases, I've come to different conclusions as to what makes a mystery satisfying. I used to believe that it was the thrill at getting something right and being correct in the end, but I've decided that was more me egotistically wanting to parading about how smart I am than anything else. I think what I've come to really appreciate with mysteries and good fancases, and what I feel really makes them fun, is the sense of intellectual sparring. You typically have the odds stacked up against you in some way, and you have to continually think and puzzle your way towards some kind of solution, trying to figure out some hole that you can exploit, some sort of logical gap that your opponents might have missed, with the intelligent mystery creator then countering and rebutting your points. It's a sort of intellectual duel between the two sides. It can never inherently be a fair match where both sides fight to their full capacity- one side has all the answers and the other side is grasping blindly looking for some kind of solution, something to make sense of everything that is it front of them. But what it can be is fun. And I'd say that TotF is basically the funnest fancase I've ever played.

The thing about most fancases that tend to throw the player into an unwinnable situation and continually shut down any attempts at progress that makes them unfun is that I never really get the feel of a game that I get in a good mystery. A feel of sport. I get the feeling of a creator overly satisfied with their own cleverness continually shutting me down and having me hit into brick wall after brick wall. But that wasn't the case here. In Father, the whole situation was pretty hopeless from the start. The game knows it, and the player knows it. You get thrown into something that seems absolutely impossible to achieve and are told to achieve it. But this game allows you to actually gain momentum without actually damaging the helplessness of the situation. It doesn't require you to pick things that are necessarily logical or make the most sense- just figure out some possible way that you can spin the data so that things look good, and you can get an advantage. And that's exactly the way that something like this needs to be structured- you don't want the player to actually be able to win, that was never the goal. But you want them to succeed and have fun succeeding. And it was a blast figuring out any possible way to make things work in this case, no matter how far-fetched and how big of a stretch it may seem.

The fact is that the player can still get joy from being right, because the expectation isn't "Come up with the solution that is logically airtight and can't get shut down with some thought." Because that would just be setting the player up for a colossal amount of frustration, because there is no such solution. The expectation is "come up with some way to link the evidence that creates some sort of hypothesis, no matter how outlandish it is." And thus can be fun to be had, because there is the illusion that both parties are doing their best to fight, with the solver coming up with hypotheses, and the mystery creator pointing out the inevitable flaws in the logic and forcing the player to rethink things.

But even by itself this might not be much fun. It'd just be the player getting things wrong and the mystery creator correcting them over and over again. But this is why the way this whole case is constructed is so great- it gives the players the perfect illusion of momentum. Even though the player is continually having to stretch the data and come up with various creative and esoteric solutions, that doesn't matter because we aren't expecting to have to do more than that. So we can possess the delusion that yes, we actually are getting somewhere. That maybe all these things will link up at the end, and we'll be able to turn things around. We'll be about to "outsmart" the omniscient mystery deviser, find just the obscure hole and just the right reach to get everything to click together. Which is really what makes the game fun, and just makes the moment when we are inevitably shut down and relearn that, no, this was a rigged game from the start, all the more satisfying, instead of frustrating.

As Ferdie said (or implied), I think that a lot of us here on AAO are conditioned to think about things this way to some extent too. We're used to having to stretch and twist logic to come up with solutions, and this usually serves us well. So we get tricked into thinking that just because everything seems like a stretch, just because this whole house of cards could collapse at any moment, doesn't necessarily mean it will. Maybe this time, it'll all work out. And I think you exploit this mentality brilliantly.

And really the best part of all this is how adequately warned we are. The game tells us over and over again that what we are saying is ridiculous, that things don't really make that much sense, to the point that we are explicitly told by characters if you think like this you are inevitably going to lose. But due to a combination of the supposed win condition rewarding this kind of thought, and on some level it being what many of us are used to, it's easy to not pay it much mind. So we keep on keeping on until the rug is inevitably pulled out from under us and the house of cards falls apart, if I may mix metaphors. But it never feels cheap, because we were warned quite clearly that this was going to happen. So we either cheerfully kick ourselves for being had and getting suckered into believing that there was hope, or (if you catch onto the game being played) smile with satisfaction when the inevitable downfall occurs, knowing that it was coming from the start.

But I've talked so much about this game and I haven't even really talked about the story. And it's a great story. It's the story of a sad man that is, in fact, operating under the logic that we are so used to. That AA characters are typically used to, as Ferdie points out. That there is no way the basic, logical conclusion could just be the correct one. That there must be some complex solution to something that seems so simple. But instead of portraying them as a clever, heroic figure, as is typically the case in AA or in AA fancases, you portray him as a broken man. A desperate man. Somebody who is very clearly chasing phantoms in order to fill the voids in his life and in order to avoid having to admit his own faults. Which is really what this kind of mentality typically stems from in reality. In reality the conspiracy theorists aren't the heroes, they aren't the brilliant minds that just get it, while the rest of us sheeple flounder about in ignorance. They're people like Ares. People that so desperately want to be right that they'll concoct basically any scenario that they can think of, anything that might be logically possible, to not have to face the reality in front of them.

Area is just a fantastic character and he's fantastically written. It's a dark portrayal but a really realistic one, and Ares feels genuinely real and human. Apollo's interactions with him are equally completely understandable and sympathetic, and the dynamic between the two is very emotional and continually interesting to read. Apollo doesn't really feel like the Apollo in canon but he doesn't have to. He's a really entertaining character to read, and the way that his mentality essentially mirrors what is likely to be the player's own is phenomenal. Like the player, he goes in knowing that the odds are stacked against him, and maybe a bit skeptical that its winnable at all. But as he keeps making stretches he slowly (like the player, most likely) becomes convinced that there must be something else there. That maybe there is hope here after all, and maybe "third grade mystery solutions" will win the day in the long run. Only to get the realization, around the same time as the player does, that it really isn't that kind of game at all. The sort of self-delusion that Apollo ends up engaging in, only for it to be crushed at the climax, is on one level tragic but on another perfectly understandable, and one that the player can probably relate too very well.

And von Karma acts as a fantastic foil. She continually remains a firm voice of reason, and mostly avoids getting sucked into the leaps of logic and fantasy that Apollo (and the player) engage in. But she isn't villainized for this. She has her honor, sense of fair play, and remains a perfectly reasonable opponent. She is just operating on a completely different wavelength than Apollo is or the type of wavelength the game encourages us to be on- one more attuned with the real world and one where logic applies instead of just-so stories and hypotheticals.

I would say that the suspects kind of feel like they belong in a different game, however. They aren't bad characters per se- they entertained me and had some neat lines. But they clearly feel like they're from the AA/AA-fancase world, and really don't have the realistic touch that the members of the main cast have. This may have been by design, but it still kind of feels awkward and out-of-place. I'm not really sure how to feel about Thalassa- she had her human moments and was an interesting character all around, but I don't really feel like I spent enough time with her to connect on the same level that I connected with the rest of the cast.

Overall, I loved the way the story ended. It wasn't a happy ending- this kind of story is probably not going to have a happy ending per se. But it's a satisfying one- one that lets us know that perhaps things will, to some degree, end up working out. There might not be a happy-ever-after, but there could be a new beginning. And in this case, that's satisfying enough.

The final interlude just kind of feels awkward though. I feel like the Franziska scene wrapped things up so beautifully and had just the right tone that this last pretty tongue-in-cheek bit feels disruptive and kind of ruins the perfect concluding feel the story was going out on. Not to mention, it kind of feels a bit contrary to the main themes of the story. I feel like so much of the story was about how all these stretches in logic and arguments are simply the products of people deluding themselves and thinking that they are seeing things that are simply not there, and yet the story concludes with Phoenix and co. saying that nope, all those stretches were totally right and the conclusion that is basically impossible to prove and was a pretty huge logical stretch was correct all along! It just feels really awkward and I'd have preferred ambiguity in this case to a scene that I feel both takes a lot of the shine from the ending and really seems contrary to what the rest of the story was going for.

So, aside from some complaints that are minor in the long run, I really really loved this case. It's easily one of my favorites on AAO, and I think that its feature status and any awards it ends up getting are most certainly deserved.
I did not mean to write 2000 words about this case going in, I swear.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by DWaM »

Thank you very much for the kind words! (Mmmm... 2000 words...)
Spoiler : Post-Credits Scene :
...In retrospect, yeah I see people's point about the post-credits scene. Originally, I put it in there at the last minute because I was afraid that people would walk out unsatisfied not knowing what happened with Larry in the end, but when you put it like that, yeah, it does go against what the case was going for. It's gone now.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by Bad Player »

I still think the post-credits scene should've become a bonus that was only viewable if you beat the optional CE xP
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by Cerberus Alpha »

Just finished it, it was a pretty awesome case, even though the end came a bit abruptly.
Spoiler : :
I mean, the behavior of everyone involved in the Butz's case was extremely suspicious and nothing is ever stated about what really happened in that room. I refuse to believe he actually committed suicide based on everything that happened during the trial, especially after Apollo outright stated that he lied to Ares and falsified evidence in order to comfort him.

I know that the main focus of the case was on Ares mentality and the "chasing things that don't to cope with stuff you did", but I expected some closure regarding the suicide after going through all those CEs and seeing all of them stumbling so many times, Maya even goes as far as trying to shut Kristoph up before he can contradict himself about the figurines...

Well, with that out of the way, the difficulty was just right, the hints about using 2 pieces of evidence (or not using a super) were enough to prevent frustration, and for the supra the trick was only going along with Ares insanity (btw, Thalassa could've totally recorded those shows before hand and transmitted the kill switch when the time was right, or just hypnotize the victims to activate the kill switch using the show's opening song or something, not needing a live broadcast to kill anyone, ergo she is the Leviathan and everything is a lie!).

I'm not very good at writing reviews so I'm sorry if it came out a bit shallow or anything like that, the case is very good despite leaving me a bit unsatisfied at the lack of closure. The characters, the main plot and the difficulty are all well planned and deserve the highest praise both for balance and quality.
Erm, so after reading other people's posts:
Spoiler : :
There was actually a bonus scene after the credits showing that they indeed killed Larry? Why would you take it down? It doesn't really subtract anything from the ending really, only adds consistency to the story IMHO, the way the trial ended abruptly without any mention to the people involved was very strange overall. Or even better, I agree with Bad Player's suggestion, make it available only to those who solve the optional CE, as it shows they are interested enough in the suicide case and don't want to simply bulldoze through the main story.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by Bad Player »

Cerberus Alpha wrote:
Spoiler : :
There was actually a bonus scene after the credits showing that they indeed killed Larry? Why would you take it down? It doesn't really subtract anything from the ending really, only adds consistency to the story IMHO, the way the trial ended abruptly without any mention to the people involved was very strange overall. Or even better, I agree with Bad Player's suggestion, make it available only to those who solve the optional CE, as it shows they are interested enough in the suicide case and don't want to simply bulldoze through the main story.
Spoiler : :
Maya killed Larry in a fit of rage (or something), and then covered it up with the help of Nick, who enlisted Kristoph and came up with/developed the idea of using an overly-elaborate story that seems to have holes in it to make it look like it isn't just a big frame-up.

While providing the true solution in some form might indeed be ideal, the 'solution' for this crime was pretty 'anti-climatic,' and the way it was presented was pretty different from the general tone and message of the case as a whole, which was only exacerbated by the fact that it was literally the last thing.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by Cerberus Alpha »

Bad Player wrote:
Cerberus Alpha wrote:
Spoiler : :
There was actually a bonus scene after the credits showing that they indeed killed Larry? Why would you take it down? It doesn't really subtract anything from the ending really, only adds consistency to the story IMHO, the way the trial ended abruptly without any mention to the people involved was very strange overall. Or even better, I agree with Bad Player's suggestion, make it available only to those who solve the optional CE, as it shows they are interested enough in the suicide case and don't want to simply bulldoze through the main story.
Spoiler : :
Maya killed Larry in a fit of rage (or something), and then covered it up with the help of Nick, who enlisted Kristoph and came up with/developed the idea of using an overly-elaborate story that seems to have holes in it to make it look like it isn't just a big frame-up.

While providing the true solution in some form might indeed be ideal, the 'solution' for this crime was pretty 'anti-climatic,' and the way it was presented was pretty different from the general tone and message of the case as a whole, which was only exacerbated by the fact that it was literally the last thing.
Spoiler : :
Well that explains it, at least it wasn't suicide as expected. Hmmm I understand where you are coming from, yet I disagree, it's worse to end the trial abruptly with no conclusion at all IMO, even if it strays a bit from the general message of chasing ghosts, considering everything that happened during the case and that Apollo states that he flat out lied in the end when explaining "everything" (because he didn't explain s*** really, it's just a load of crap backed up by falsified evidence).

Actually, if you think about it, the ending basically also says that it's all right to falsify evidence and tell a lie as the truth as long as the intention is good, even if it wasn't during the trial proper, basically what Ares had been doing all this time, lying to himself and using "false" evidence to justify his suspicion of Thalassa in order to cope with his own mistakes. I understand what you mean in your explanation, but I humbly disagree, that scene could be viewed as the consequence of ditching the case due to the personal emotions interfering with professional work, the same that was happening with Ares.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by NihilisticNinja »

Cerberus Alpha wrote:
Spoiler : :
Well that explains it, at least it wasn't suicide as expected. Hmmm I understand where you are coming from, yet I disagree, it's worse to end the trial abruptly with no conclusion at all IMO, even if it strays a bit from the general message of chasing ghosts, considering everything that happened during the case and that Apollo states that he flat out lied in the end when explaining "everything" (because he didn't explain s*** really, it's just a load of crap backed up by falsified evidence).

Actually, if you think about it, the ending basically also says that it's all right to falsify evidence and tell a lie as the truth as long as the intention is good, even if it wasn't during the trial proper, basically what Ares had been doing all this time, lying to himself and using "false" evidence to justify his suspicion of Thalassa in order to cope with his own mistakes. I understand what you mean in your explanation, but I humbly disagree, that scene could be viewed as the consequence of ditching the case due to the personal emotions interfering with professional work, the same that was happening with Ares.
Spoiler : :
I am typically a harsh opponent of ambiguity in endings, but I think it works perfectly here. Because in my opinion, in the end, the solution doesn't really matter. The story was never really about the mystery- it was about Apollo and Aries' struggles with delusion and continually attempting to see things that simply aren't there. It was about how stretches in logic don't always get you where you want to go, and that at times the simplest solution is the correct one. It was more of a character study, in my opinion, than a mystery.

And if it's all just a load of crap... what does it say that it was basically right? Like, even if his logic was faulty, he was pretty close to the solution as far as the culprits were concerned. And that damages the message that bad logic leads to wrong conclusions, because even if he wasn't completely right, he got pretty damn close.

You're going to have to explain to me how that is the message; I got the message that at times it can be good to tell a comfortable lie in order to spare somebody unnecessary pain. And that's a completely fair message. It's not like he forged the evidence and presented it to the court- he simply faked it and gave it to Aries so that he wouldn't completely break, because he wanted a culprit and there simply wasn't one.

It's saying that there are cases where deception, if not preferable, is completely understandable. It's not like anybody was hurt by Apollo's trick- whereas if Apollo had been wrong and gotten everybody convicted, several people's lives would have been ruined. And Aries was wrong and he basically destroyed his own life pursuing a phantom.

And I don't get what you're saying at the end there, or how it connects to the ending.
"With good friends by your side, anything is possible. If you really care for each other, it makes everyone stronger! Then you'll have the will to succeed! The world is filled with painful things, it's sad sometimes, and you won't be able to handle it by yourself. But just know: If there's someone that you love, you'll stay on the right path. And you won't ever give in! As long as you keep that person in your heart, you'll keep getting back up. Understand? That's why a Hero never loses!"
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by Cerberus Alpha »

NihilisticNinja wrote:
Cerberus Alpha wrote:
Spoiler : :
Well that explains it, at least it wasn't suicide as expected. Hmmm I understand where you are coming from, yet I disagree, it's worse to end the trial abruptly with no conclusion at all IMO, even if it strays a bit from the general message of chasing ghosts, considering everything that happened during the case and that Apollo states that he flat out lied in the end when explaining "everything" (because he didn't explain s*** really, it's just a load of crap backed up by falsified evidence).

Actually, if you think about it, the ending basically also says that it's all right to falsify evidence and tell a lie as the truth as long as the intention is good, even if it wasn't during the trial proper, basically what Ares had been doing all this time, lying to himself and using "false" evidence to justify his suspicion of Thalassa in order to cope with his own mistakes. I understand what you mean in your explanation, but I humbly disagree, that scene could be viewed as the consequence of ditching the case due to the personal emotions interfering with professional work, the same that was happening with Ares.
Spoiler : :
I am typically a harsh opponent of ambiguity in endings, but I think it works perfectly here. Because in my opinion, in the end, the solution doesn't really matter. The story was never really about the mystery- it was about Apollo and Aries' struggles with delusion and continually attempting to see things that simply aren't there. It was about how stretches in logic don't always get you where you want to go, and that at times the simplest solution is the correct one. It was more of a character study, in my opinion, than a mystery.

And if it's all just a load of crap... what does it say that it was basically right? Like, even if his logic was faulty, he was pretty close to the solution as far as the culprits were concerned. And that damages the message that bad logic leads to wrong conclusions, because even if he wasn't completely right, he got pretty damn close.

You're going to have to explain to me how that is the message; I got the message that at times it can be good to tell a comfortable lie in order to spare somebody unnecessary pain. And that's a completely fair message. It's not like he forged the evidence and presented it to the court- he simply faked it and gave it to Aries so that he wouldn't completely break, because he wanted a culprit and there simply wasn't one.

It's saying that there are cases where deception, if not preferable, is completely understandable. It's not like anybody was hurt by Apollo's trick- whereas if Apollo had been wrong and gotten everybody convicted, several people's lives would have been ruined. And Aries was wrong and he basically destroyed his own life pursuing a phantom.

And I don't get what you're saying at the end there, or how it connects to the ending.
Spoiler : :
Eh, I get that the main message of the story is not based on the case we work around 75% of the trial proper, but still I would like some closure considering the circumstances, everybody was caught lying and constantly had to revise their testimony every time one of their fake alibis was exposed. No way there isn't something wrong here, and the case ends with the defense abandoning the bench because of an emotional outburst and everyone walks out like nothing happened... yeah it leaves me a bit unsatisfied. It seems what you have a problem with is that Apollo was actually right and you feel that it "cheapens" the main message of the story, not with a solution being shown correct?

Hmmm my bad, guess I didn't phrase that well, when I said load of crap based on fake evidence I mean the explanation Apollo gives to Ares about the suicides, not the explanation about Larry's "suicide". About that interpretation, what I meant is that he "fixed" Ares delusion with a lie (which also slandered the victim's name while at it, but who is gonna complain right?), in the same fashion Ares was holding himself together with the lie that his wife's death was Thalassa's fault instead of his own. I'm not arguing that it wasn't a "good" thing to do, but also I wouldn't be surprised if Ares someday took a peek at his notes about the Leviathan and finds out that Apollo lied to him when comparing the names on that falsified list...

At the end I mean that he abandoned a trial because of an emotional outburst due to a fight with his father, ergo his emotional state interfering with his professional work. True, the stakes were low and the case was being treated a farce until a certain point, but still nothing changes the fact that he ditched it, and the killers escaped because of this.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by kwando1313 »

Spoiler : :
Honestly, for me, the solution that was shown at the end cheapens the experience - it didn't jive with the rest of the tone or message of the case. Because... The case isn't the focus of the case. The focus is the relationship between Apollo and his father, and well, what his father's redemption is.
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by NihilisticNinja »

Cerberus Alpha wrote:
NihilisticNinja wrote:
Cerberus Alpha wrote:
Spoiler : :
Well that explains it, at least it wasn't suicide as expected. Hmmm I understand where you are coming from, yet I disagree, it's worse to end the trial abruptly with no conclusion at all IMO, even if it strays a bit from the general message of chasing ghosts, considering everything that happened during the case and that Apollo states that he flat out lied in the end when explaining "everything" (because he didn't explain s*** really, it's just a load of crap backed up by falsified evidence).

Actually, if you think about it, the ending basically also says that it's all right to falsify evidence and tell a lie as the truth as long as the intention is good, even if it wasn't during the trial proper, basically what Ares had been doing all this time, lying to himself and using "false" evidence to justify his suspicion of Thalassa in order to cope with his own mistakes. I understand what you mean in your explanation, but I humbly disagree, that scene could be viewed as the consequence of ditching the case due to the personal emotions interfering with professional work, the same that was happening with Ares.
Spoiler : :
I am typically a harsh opponent of ambiguity in endings, but I think it works perfectly here. Because in my opinion, in the end, the solution doesn't really matter. The story was never really about the mystery- it was about Apollo and Aries' struggles with delusion and continually attempting to see things that simply aren't there. It was about how stretches in logic don't always get you where you want to go, and that at times the simplest solution is the correct one. It was more of a character study, in my opinion, than a mystery.

And if it's all just a load of crap... what does it say that it was basically right? Like, even if his logic was faulty, he was pretty close to the solution as far as the culprits were concerned. And that damages the message that bad logic leads to wrong conclusions, because even if he wasn't completely right, he got pretty damn close.

You're going to have to explain to me how that is the message; I got the message that at times it can be good to tell a comfortable lie in order to spare somebody unnecessary pain. And that's a completely fair message. It's not like he forged the evidence and presented it to the court- he simply faked it and gave it to Aries so that he wouldn't completely break, because he wanted a culprit and there simply wasn't one.

It's saying that there are cases where deception, if not preferable, is completely understandable. It's not like anybody was hurt by Apollo's trick- whereas if Apollo had been wrong and gotten everybody convicted, several people's lives would have been ruined. And Aries was wrong and he basically destroyed his own life pursuing a phantom.

And I don't get what you're saying at the end there, or how it connects to the ending.
Spoiler : :
Eh, I get that the main message of the story is not based on the case we work around 75% of the trial proper, but still I would like some closure considering the circumstances, everybody was caught lying and constantly had to revise their testimony every time one of their fake alibis was exposed. No way there isn't something wrong here, and the case ends with the defense abandoning the bench because of an emotional outburst and everyone walks out like nothing happened... yeah it leaves me a bit unsatisfied. It seems what you have a problem with is that Apollo was actually right and you feel that it "cheapens" the main message of the story, not with a solution being shown correct?

Hmmm my bad, guess I didn't phrase that well, when I said load of crap based on fake evidence I mean the explanation Apollo gives to Ares about the suicides, not the explanation about Larry's "suicide". About that interpretation, what I meant is that he "fixed" Ares delusion with a lie (which also slandered the victim's name while at it, but who is gonna complain right?), in the same fashion Ares was holding himself together with the lie that his wife's death was Thalassa's fault instead of his own. I'm not arguing that it wasn't a "good" thing to do, but also I wouldn't be surprised if Ares someday took a peek at his notes about the Leviathan and finds out that Apollo lied to him when comparing the names on that falsified list...

At the end I mean that he abandoned a trial because of an emotional outburst due to a fight with his father, ergo his emotional state interfering with his professional work. True, the stakes were low and the case was being treated a farce until a certain point, but still nothing changes the fact that he ditched it, and the killers escaped because of this.
Spoiler : :
I don't know, I feel like you still get the impression that something might be off about this whole situation, but the game doesn't need to explicitly go "Oh yeah, Apollo was basically right." And if you keep it ambiguous you at least leave the possibility of "Hey, maybe the rest of the story was right and this is all explainable, and the ending isn't basically Apollo being 60-70% right (at a minimum) in a game that seemed to revolve around people who grasp at straws being wrong."

Well, perhaps I was the one being unclear because I think that's what I meant as well? I assumed you meant the forged evidence that Apollo gave to Aries to "prove" that Larry was the one that drove those people to suicide. And I don't really see the slander as a big deal, honestly, he's slandering a dead man that can be charged with nothing and from what we know wasn't exactly a beacon of morality to begin with. And nobody will even know about the slander except the people in that room, most likely, which really means it doesn't effect his reputation or legacy in any way either.

Also, I would argue that Apollo's lie is totally different from the way that Aries was deluding himself. I can go into it, if you want, but given that you don't necessarily feel that it was the wrong thing to do per se, I'm not sure if that's a debate you're interested in having.

I'd honestly be surprised if he ever looked at the Leviathan case file again after what happened though. He got his closure, and he clearly wanted to move on and try to rebuild his life. And that's what Apollo was counting on. And what it comes down to is that he really didn't have many other options if he wanted to keep Aries from completely shattering mentally. It was a potentially risky move, I'll grant you, but I'm not sure what other choices he had.

And I think that it should be noted, that even if I agreed you that the ending was appropriate, it still creates dissonance with the tone of what came just before it. We get a sense of closure and completeness, and that even if the story doesn't completely explain everything, Apollo and Aries' story is done, and that's what really mattered all along. And then we get a jarring, more tongue-in-cheek ending that wraps it up in a slightly rushed way that just really didn't work for me at all. On a tonal level, the case fares much better after you've gotten rid of the ending.
"With good friends by your side, anything is possible. If you really care for each other, it makes everyone stronger! Then you'll have the will to succeed! The world is filled with painful things, it's sad sometimes, and you won't be able to handle it by yourself. But just know: If there's someone that you love, you'll stay on the right path. And you won't ever give in! As long as you keep that person in your heart, you'll keep getting back up. Understand? That's why a Hero never loses!"
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by Radian »

Hello DWaM !

I was looking for some trial to play, and it happened that yours was first in the list, so I played it ! :P I'm not very at ease with English, therefore I'm not going to make a big review. I'll just give you the key points of my opinion.
Spoiler : Good points :
The trial had such an epic atmosphere ! It was really dark, mysterious and all. The soundtrack helped a lot, but the plot was really intriguing and the characters very interesting. I was completely involved in the case, and in the confrontations between Apollo and his father, or Apollo and all the witnesses. There are also some good and innovatives gameplay ideas. Loved the supra-objection and the music that came with. I can't really judge of the difficulty of CEs, cause I think it was a bit harder for me as a french, but globally it was good ! In fact, the whole trial was really good and immersive. It is very inspiring, and it clearly shows the mastering you have of dialogs and atmosphere.
Spoiler : Disappoiting points :
The conclusion essentially. I felt it like an enormous ballon that goes flat instead of exploding in a giant BAM in the face. In fact I don't even still get some facts.
I'll give them to you as they come to my mind and sorry if I just misunderstood something.
- Why Ares tells Apollo that his wife was the Leviathan and then engages a confrontation with Thalassa?
- How Ares can be fooled by Apollo's trick about the name of the clients in Butz' Ledger? The man worked on these cases during five years!
- If all the witnesses finally are the culprits... Why putting on all this charad? Franziska says it during the trial : It would have been a lot easier to just kill him and be ok on the testimony. There were no evidences, after all.
- What is Gavin interest in killing Butz?

And, from a totally subjective point of view, I always find hard to be happy when a case ends up like : "Heeeey nop. It was all about the imagination of a mad man. And the three real killers can go free!". x)
Turnabout of the Father was really good, anyway. I will probably play to your other cases, because I really like the way you made this case, and I hardly doubt it changes a lot from one of your case to another. :)

So, see you soon, and thanks for the experience!
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by DWaM »

Well, thanks for playing! Glad you enjoyed it!

To clarify a few points, though:
Spoiler : :
- Ares didn't accuse his wife of being Leviathan, he accused the woman he was having an affair with to be Leviathan (Thalassa).
- There were several factors that allowed Ares to "buy into" the deception: One is that, while he did investigate the Leviathan for five years, it's only Butz's murder itself that makes this "connection" apparent. And it's quite clear from his actions that he never really dug that much deeper into Butz's murder itself, simply because in his mind there was no point to it - to him, it was: "the circumstances fit the Leviathan killings, thus it must be the Leviathan". Chances are that if he had dug deeper into it, he would've ended up at least suspecting that something might be wrong. Another factor is that, subconsciously, he was willing to take whatever explanation was provided to him at that point, because he had nothing else left.
- The last two points sort of tie into the deleted scene. It was all Phoenix's idea - basically, his logic was that if he had intentionally made it suspicious, it would've become a point of contention for whoever had accused him. He wanted for Franziska to be able to make that point. Gavin didn't kill Butz - he was brought in for the sake of making their testimonies work (on Phoenix's request). The nature of his character and the relationship with Phoenix in this AU is, obviously, unknown, but at the very least different from the original game.

As for final point...

errrrrrrrrrr

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^ Average DWaM case player after a DWaM case

ya might wanna get used to that before going into some of my other stuff...

(mainly because out of all my cases, this one actually has the happiest conclusion...)
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by Cerberus Alpha »

NihilisticNinja wrote:
Cerberus Alpha wrote:
NihilisticNinja wrote:
Spoiler : :
I am typically a harsh opponent of ambiguity in endings, but I think it works perfectly here. Because in my opinion, in the end, the solution doesn't really matter. The story was never really about the mystery- it was about Apollo and Aries' struggles with delusion and continually attempting to see things that simply aren't there. It was about how stretches in logic don't always get you where you want to go, and that at times the simplest solution is the correct one. It was more of a character study, in my opinion, than a mystery.

And if it's all just a load of crap... what does it say that it was basically right? Like, even if his logic was faulty, he was pretty close to the solution as far as the culprits were concerned. And that damages the message that bad logic leads to wrong conclusions, because even if he wasn't completely right, he got pretty damn close.

You're going to have to explain to me how that is the message; I got the message that at times it can be good to tell a comfortable lie in order to spare somebody unnecessary pain. And that's a completely fair message. It's not like he forged the evidence and presented it to the court- he simply faked it and gave it to Aries so that he wouldn't completely break, because he wanted a culprit and there simply wasn't one.

It's saying that there are cases where deception, if not preferable, is completely understandable. It's not like anybody was hurt by Apollo's trick- whereas if Apollo had been wrong and gotten everybody convicted, several people's lives would have been ruined. And Aries was wrong and he basically destroyed his own life pursuing a phantom.

And I don't get what you're saying at the end there, or how it connects to the ending.
Spoiler : :
Eh, I get that the main message of the story is not based on the case we work around 75% of the trial proper, but still I would like some closure considering the circumstances, everybody was caught lying and constantly had to revise their testimony every time one of their fake alibis was exposed. No way there isn't something wrong here, and the case ends with the defense abandoning the bench because of an emotional outburst and everyone walks out like nothing happened... yeah it leaves me a bit unsatisfied. It seems what you have a problem with is that Apollo was actually right and you feel that it "cheapens" the main message of the story, not with a solution being shown correct?

Hmmm my bad, guess I didn't phrase that well, when I said load of crap based on fake evidence I mean the explanation Apollo gives to Ares about the suicides, not the explanation about Larry's "suicide". About that interpretation, what I meant is that he "fixed" Ares delusion with a lie (which also slandered the victim's name while at it, but who is gonna complain right?), in the same fashion Ares was holding himself together with the lie that his wife's death was Thalassa's fault instead of his own. I'm not arguing that it wasn't a "good" thing to do, but also I wouldn't be surprised if Ares someday took a peek at his notes about the Leviathan and finds out that Apollo lied to him when comparing the names on that falsified list...

At the end I mean that he abandoned a trial because of an emotional outburst due to a fight with his father, ergo his emotional state interfering with his professional work. True, the stakes were low and the case was being treated a farce until a certain point, but still nothing changes the fact that he ditched it, and the killers escaped because of this.
Spoiler : :
I don't know, I feel like you still get the impression that something might be off about this whole situation, but the game doesn't need to explicitly go "Oh yeah, Apollo was basically right." And if you keep it ambiguous you at least leave the possibility of "Hey, maybe the rest of the story was right and this is all explainable, and the ending isn't basically Apollo being 60-70% right (at a minimum) in a game that seemed to revolve around people who grasp at straws being wrong."

Well, perhaps I was the one being unclear because I think that's what I meant as well? I assumed you meant the forged evidence that Apollo gave to Aries to "prove" that Larry was the one that drove those people to suicide. And I don't really see the slander as a big deal, honestly, he's slandering a dead man that can be charged with nothing and from what we know wasn't exactly a beacon of morality to begin with. And nobody will even know about the slander except the people in that room, most likely, which really means it doesn't effect his reputation or legacy in any way either.

Also, I would argue that Apollo's lie is totally different from the way that Aries was deluding himself. I can go into it, if you want, but given that you don't necessarily feel that it was the wrong thing to do per se, I'm not sure if that's a debate you're interested in having.

I'd honestly be surprised if he ever looked at the Leviathan case file again after what happened though. He got his closure, and he clearly wanted to move on and try to rebuild his life. And that's what Apollo was counting on. And what it comes down to is that he really didn't have many other options if he wanted to keep Aries from completely shattering mentally. It was a potentially risky move, I'll grant you, but I'm not sure what other choices he had.

And I think that it should be noted, that even if I agreed you that the ending was appropriate, it still creates dissonance with the tone of what came just before it. We get a sense of closure and completeness, and that even if the story doesn't completely explain everything, Apollo and Aries' story is done, and that's what really mattered all along. And then we get a jarring, more tongue-in-cheek ending that wraps it up in a slightly rushed way that just really didn't work for me at all. On a tonal level, the case fares much better after you've gotten rid of the ending.
Spoiler : :
Erm, it's not just "something feels off", everyone was caught lying and covering for each other several times during the trial, not to mention Gavin's all too conveniently showing up as a surprise witness in a case that was supposedly kept under wraps from the public eye. Maya telling Gavin to shut up at a certain point is a blatant admission of guilt on their part, yet everyone ignores everything that happened before when Ares enters the room ranting about the Leviathan, and Apollo simply abandons the case and runs away in anger.

Oh, it's just that you mentioned culprits and Apollo being basically right about the solution so I figured you thought I was saying that Apollo's logic about the suicide case was a load of crap, when I was actually referring to the BS he fed Ares in the end. No need to get into detail about how their lies are different, I understand why they did what they did, but still they fixed it with yet another deception that has the potential to backfire horribly should Ares take a look at the case again on whim... it kinda surprised me how quickly Ares gave up considering his obsession with the Leviathan.

Hmmm, perhaps our different POVs about this stem from the fact that you actually saw a conclusion for the trial, whereas I did not, so you actually got closure, even if unsatisfying, while I had to keep wondering what happened. Maybe if I'd seen the scene I'd arrive at the same conclusion as pretty much everyone else that saw it did, so I guess I'll take you guys' word for it, but still making it a reward for solving the optional CE couldn't hurt right?
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Re: [T] Turnabouts of the Father ★

Post by NihilisticNinja »

Cerberus Alpha wrote:
Spoiler : :
Erm, it's not just "something feels off", everyone was caught lying and covering for each other several times during the trial, not to mention Gavin's all too conveniently showing up as a surprise witness in a case that was supposedly kept under wraps from the public eye. Maya telling Gavin to shut up at a certain point is a blatant admission of guilt on their part, yet everyone ignores everything that happened before when Ares enters the room ranting about the Leviathan, and Apollo simply abandons the case and runs away in anger.

Oh, it's just that you mentioned culprits and Apollo being basically right about the solution so I figured you thought I was saying that Apollo's logic about the suicide case was a load of crap, when I was actually referring to the BS he fed Ares in the end. No need to get into detail about how their lies are different, I understand why they did what they did, but still they fixed it with yet another deception that has the potential to backfire horribly should Ares take a look at the case again on whim... it kinda surprised me how quickly Ares gave up considering his obsession with the Leviathan.

Hmmm, perhaps our different POVs about this stem from the fact that you actually saw a conclusion for the trial, whereas I did not, so you actually got closure, even if unsatisfying, while I had to keep wondering what happened. Maybe if I'd seen the scene I'd arrive at the same conclusion as pretty much everyone else that saw it did, so I guess I'll take you guys' word for it, but still making it a reward for solving the optional CE couldn't hurt right?
Spoiler : :
Well, I feel like on some level that conclusion is certainly easy to reach, but I'm not positive how much of it has to do with "they were the killers by basic logic", and how much of it has to do with "they conformed to the kinds of tropes that we're all used to, so we naturally concluded that they were the killers."

For instance, all their lies. It's worth noting that it's a very high pressure situation being on the witness stand, especially when your every word is being scrutinized by a defense attorney determined to poke any holes into your story as possible. Aside from Phoenix, these people aren't going to have that much experience with that sort of thing, so it would be easy to screw up and make mistakes, or forget events. And even in Phoenix's case, the human mind basically has a natural tendency to err.

There's a reason witness testimony is considered one of the least reliable forms of evidence in an actual court of law- this may be slightly balanced out by having the trial immediately afterward, but it's still pretty easy to make mistakes based on preconceptions of what you think occurred rather than what you know occurred, simply misspeak or improperly word things out of stress, or forget details for that exact same reason. To us, the whole "Oh hey, I forgot X" may seem really sketchy, because it's a work of fiction and things like that typically don't have such a simplistic answer. But, really? It's honestly completely possible that, yes, he did just forget X. People screw up and make mistakes, and that doesn't mean that they're the killer every single time. That's a rule of mystery fiction, and not a rule of reality.

And to us, the whole "Shut up Kristoph" thing sounds really damning, as does Maya's taunting to Apollo earlier. But I'm not convinced that those things can't be explained. After all, at that point anybody would get frustrated- holes were continually being poked in their story, and if they were innocent, those holes wouldn't exist because of failing to probably plan out their lies, they would have been in there simply due to basic mistakes in recollection and similar errors. That is really frustrating, and the idea that you might have to go to jail because of honest mistakes would definitely cause enough stress, fear, and frustration that people could say things that they don't really mean. If one of you is continually making mistakes and screwing things up, even if they don't mean to, it's natural to just want them to... stop talking.

And the taunting is even simpler to explain- it could be Maya putting on some false bravado because she honestly does find getting accused to be scary, but really doesn't want to show that fear to a defense attorney so that it can be exploited. So she uses the knowledge that she is innocent, and basically says "I wouldn't do that if I were you", perhaps also as a way to get him to stop pressuring her, so that she doesn't even have to risk going to prison for a crime she didn't commit.

Now, you could argue that these are stretches in logic based on psycho-analysis. I would respond that the issue is that the other side is already doing that, because the entire conclusion that most of them are in on it and yet threw together this contrived scheme could only be the result of "They did it unnecessarily to throw us all off their trail!" And that is also a logical stretch that is also based on psycho-analysis of people that we barely even know. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

In terms of the ending, you could very well have a point. I certainly can't say with authority that you are wrong, and I can't know for sure what my reaction would be playing it blind now myself. Especially since, as I said in my first response, I am typically not a fan of ambiguous endings. I don't think it would certainly do any harm to have it as an optional bonus, I just completely understand why it was cut.
"With good friends by your side, anything is possible. If you really care for each other, it makes everyone stronger! Then you'll have the will to succeed! The world is filled with painful things, it's sad sometimes, and you won't be able to handle it by yourself. But just know: If there's someone that you love, you'll stay on the right path. And you won't ever give in! As long as you keep that person in your heart, you'll keep getting back up. Understand? That's why a Hero never loses!"
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