[T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

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Reecer6
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ☆

Post by Reecer6 »

Congratulations! You have a real underdog story here. Broken really deserved being featured. I really don't know how you can just pick up gold like this and say "This HAS to be done," with such a burning desire, but it really worked out for you.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ☆

Post by clcman »

And... now I've really got to get around to playing this. Give me a minute.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ☆

Post by Ferdielance »

I finally got around to playing this! SOC, then review:
Spoiler : SOC :
This opening is great and in character.
A bit of a heavy load of evidence to start with. Okay, let me try to remember the original case...
I'm not quite feeling Franziska's characterization yet; a tad heavy on the foolspeak so far. She tends to use it more when she's flustered.
So THAT'S why Phoenix isn't here; he's not trusted.
A-HA okay, I see where this is going... it was nice knowing you, evidence.
your pedigree "constitutes as evidence" -> "constitutes evidence"
(looks at evidence)
LEMONSNOOOOOOUUUUTTTTT
"Exposure to stomach acid," huh? Hmm. So injected atroquinine wouldn't work.
so this is a matter of ideals for Franziska, that's something
the witness is Kristoph, isn't it
it is
OH GEEZ KRISTOPH so much for subtlety
Okay, points to Franziska for pointing out the obvious problems with lie bracelets and mood matrices
OH I GET IT.
Nice final testimony puzzle.
SUGAR SUGAR
OH THAT NIGHT IN YOUR EMBRACE
Nicely tested. Polished.
Good epilogue
Review is under spoiler cut:
Spoiler : Motives, like stowaways, are found too late :
And you may ask yourself,
"Am I right? Am I wrong?"
And you may say to yourself,
"My God, what have I done?"


- Talking Heads, "Once in a Lifetime"

Canonically, the Ace Attorney games (excluding Investigations) are usually about people trying to do the right thing under trying circumstances, but disagreeing about what the right thing to do is. The prosecutors are rarely flatly evil, and the murderers have reasons. Fancases often give lip service to these moral dilemmas, but tend to either push the puzzles ahead, or subvert the dilemma entirely by suggesting there is no right thing to do.

"The Broken Turnabout" is closer in spirit to the canon games than most of the fancases I've seen, in its compassion for the characters and willingness to tie mystery and drama together. It questions its characters ideals, but doesn't reject them. Franziska, Apollo, and Phoenix all have important points to make, and weaknesses to confront, and the truth at the core of this story - an emotional truth - only comes out when they clash. This idea, that prosecutors and defense attorneys work together by opposing each other, is core to the AA series, but rarely gets fully explored in fancases. Here, it's central. In AJ, Klavier was too nice to Phoenix and Apollo, too close to the real killer, too willing to let Phoenix do whatever he wanted with the evidence - possibly out of guilt. It's up to Franziska von Karma to call them out on their mistakes.

The plot itself isn't as important as the character development. We know what happened in the original case. We know, or think we know, what's happening here. What really matters is how this dubious and quasi-legal trial brings out the personalities of the characters and forces them to confront themselves. In this respect, "The Broken Turnabout" is thematically very similar to DWaM's excellent "Turnabouts of the Father." But where TotF questions the value of relentlessly assembling a "story" to explain events, here, that struggle is treated the way the canonical games treat it - as a pursuit that brings out the best in us, rather than the worst.

But that's enough big woozy abstractions! Specifics now!

From the start, the character voices are solid, if sometimes a little heavy-handed. The intro is exactly on-point, and feels like a canon case, but Franziska's early-game voice is a little too close to her JfA voice for a person eight years older - she drops too many sequential "fools" when she isn't even angry yet. Athena uses foreign words practically every other sentence, rather than as an occasional conversational spice. But as the game goes on, the characterization gets more and more sure-footed, until the final scenes are just convincing enough to hold it all together.

The plot/mystery itself, while not as central as the character development, uses a lot of neat tricks to create tension and keep the stakes high. The vanishing evidence is foreshadowed just enough to let dread set in, the "doomed presents" build tension, and the testimonies are fun and not overlong. The situation feels unfair, but not hopelessly unfair. The pressure stays on, thanks to the wise choice to keep the Canadian Judge sympathetic to Franziska and wary of Justice and co. Some questions seem as though they could have been pressed more - I kept thinking, "Man, double jeopardy rules REALLY should break this story." But I let that go, because I was willing to swallow the rest of it!

(I do think that the double jeopardy issue needs a bit more attention...)

The puzzles and gameplay were solid, as were the sprite use and general presentation. There are some nice places where the user gets a chance to interact even if it makes no difference, which keeps the game flowing. I think a few more of those extra interactions would have been nice, if only because I'm a HUGE fan of giving the player lots of dialogue choices, but what was there satisfied me.

Finally, the game was distinctly polished. There were a lot of playtesters, and it showed! Every interaction made sense to me, the pacing of the scenes was about right, and there were a bare minimum of grammar errors!

Overall: This is a definite must-play. It won't take long to play through, but it's full of fun ideas.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ☆

Post by Calvinball »

Thank you very much for the review, Ferdielance! I'm glad you enjoyed it. I have comments below and, now that I've calmed down properly, I have a few for Enthalpy as well (assuming that responding to a QA review isn't a faux pas of some sort?). I won't include presentational stuff, since you already got that in my PM.
Spoiler : @Enthalpy :
Enthalpy wrote:Broken simply is not intended to be a mystery, so "good but not great" is perhaps the most you can ask for. Every contradiction was fair. Every cross-examination did what it was supposed to and made sense for the court to have.
Well, you're absolutely right. I guess there's not a whole lot to say. My skills with creating mysteries and puzzles still aren't very well-practiced, so I figured for a first case I shouldn't try to create some sort of puzzle-box. I'm a storyteller by nature, though, so creating something narratively driven came much more naturally.
Enthalpy wrote:I wasn't fond of the "Guitar's Serenade" choice at the end, due to the mispronounced English. This isn't a required change.
I'll be totally honest, I never quite realized that it was supposed to be English. I thought it was similar, but I still figured it was supposed to be "Borgininian." ^~^

And... er... I guess there's not much else to say. You really hit the nail on the head with basically everything in the review! You uncovered and analyzed elements of the case that even I hadn't noticed as consciously before, or at least hadn't noted as significant as you knew them to be. Thank you once again for beta-testing and for reviewing and helping me make this case the best it can be. I can't wait to see your follow-up!
Spoiler : @Ferdielance :
Ferdielance wrote:Nice final testimony puzzle.
I assume you refer to the Franziska rebuttal, yes? In which case, thank you! That and the badge present are really the only true puzzles in the entire game, and I'm quite proud of them. I'm hoping that whatever I make next I can make the puzzles stand out a little more on their own, though.
Ferdielance wrote:"The Broken Turnabout" is closer in spirit to the canon games than most of the fancases I've seen, in its compassion for the characters and willingness to tie mystery and drama together. It questions its characters ideals, but doesn't reject them. Franziska, Apollo, and Phoenix all have important points to make, and weaknesses to confront, and the truth at the core of this story - an emotional truth - only comes out when they clash. This idea, that prosecutors and defense attorneys work together by opposing each other, is core to the AA series, but rarely gets fully explored in fancases. Here, it's central. In AJ, Klavier was too nice to Phoenix and Apollo, too close to the real killer, too willing to let Phoenix do whatever he wanted with the evidence - possibly out of guilt. It's up to Franziska von Karma to call them out on their mistakes.
Yes, this was something that I had wanted to do for a long time. I'll admit, I wasn't the biggest fan of Phoenix's shadier tactics in Apollo Justice and I wanted to try and confront that. Of course, the only way to revisit AJ-4 is through even shadier tactics... and so we have our plot and our character conflicts. It worked out better than I could've dreamed, really.
Ferdielance wrote:From the start, the character voices are solid, if sometimes a little heavy-handed. The intro is exactly on-point, and feels like a canon case, but Franziska's early-game voice is a little too close to her JfA voice for a person eight years older - she drops too many sequential "fools" when she isn't even angry yet. Athena uses foreign words practically every other sentence, rather than as an occasional conversational spice. But as the game goes on, the characterization gets more and more sure-footed, until the final scenes are just convincing enough to hold it all together.
Yeah... Franziska and Athena's early-game writing are probably two of the weaker elements of the case as a whole. It's difficult to write those two without trying too hard, y'know? I suppose I ended up having Franziska use the successive "fools" when she was exceptionally smug, which I'm fairly certain she does in the game but highly infrequently. I believe I did it more than once, which led to it feeling overused. Though this does explain why a number of people who've played have mentioned thinking that Franziska felt slightly off at first glance. Of course, with Franziska one can say that she isn't quite herself, what with the revenge and the guilt for the revenge weighing heavily on her mind, though that's only an excuse. Well, all I can do is resolve not to do it again! Thank you for pointing it out!

The same, of course, goes for Athena. I'll admit I don't know her as well as the other characters. I'm just glad I was able to get more comfortable writing her by the end of the case. I'll be sure to be a bit more cautious and exercise more restraint with the foreign words if I find myself writing her again.
Ferdielance wrote:(I do think that the double jeopardy issue needs a bit more attention...)
I thought that I did address the double jeopardy issue in the game? Not by name, but the fact that the Jurist System was never made official made the original trial "null and void." In other words, it was a mistrial, for which double jeopardy laws do not apply.
Ferdielance wrote:There are some nice places where the user gets a chance to interact even if it makes no difference, which keeps the game flowing. I think a few more of those extra interactions would have been nice, if only because I'm a HUGE fan of giving the player lots of dialogue choices, but what was there satisfied me.
Funny story; in the original draft (a draft that even the beta-testers didn't see) of the case, there was actually an option for the player to skip all of Ema's cross-examination. Then I realized it kind of messed up the pacing of the case as a whole, so I scrapped that. I'm glad you liked the extra interactions, though. Those were a little challenging to write (since all choices had to reach the same conclusion) but it was fun to do, as some of the unintuitive choices led to unusual or amusing results.

Speaking of, did you ever get a chance to see the optional Macarena dialogue? That one was added post-competition just for enigma!
Ferdielance wrote:Overall: This is a definite must-play. It won't take long to play through, but it's full of fun ideas.
Thank you very much for the review! Your thematic analysis was fascinating to read and I'm glad you enjoyed it. Also, you've given me a few things to think about and work on in my writing so that it can be even better next time.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ☆

Post by Enthalpy »

I'll be responding to questions and comments later, now the final changes have been made, so...

★ The QA inspection is complete. This case is now featured. Congratulations!
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Calvinball »

Wow...thank you so much to everyone who helped for, well, all your help! Beta-testers, reviewers, competition hosts, spriters, tutorial writers, the works! This is...this is an honor and I am so grateful to all of you who helped The Broken Turnabout make it here. It is my hope that I've contributed something meaningful, even in the smallest way, to AAO and to the life of anyone who plays Broken, and I hope that I will get the opportunity to do it again. This really is a great community. Thank you all so much for this and for allowing me to be a part of Ace Attorney Online.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Stelle »

Just wanted to say this might be my favorite case on AAO so far. Everyone was in character, and it didn't lean too far into wacky or grimdark territory. Basically, it felt like an actual Ace Attorney case that could have fit right into canon and actually improved some aspects of it (I love you case 4-4, but sometimes you make no sense). Also, Athena. Thank you so much for making Athena exist in this case. I know she's a relatively new character, but she also seems like a prime candidate for being ignored or villainized by the fans (not just on this site, of course).
Spoiler : :
Also, von Karma. All I wanted in a trial. She felt perfectly in-character, but not a regression of her personality to pre-character development levels. It's hard to bring back a friendly (....kinda) prosecutor and make drama happen, but her motivations are sound and the way she goes about it is just so her.

The reason for the trial at all threw me at first, since I was trying to figure out why Kristoph would plead guilty for one murder and innocent for another, and then I realized, "Of course he would, he's Kristoff. He's beaned men with bottles for less." What a petty little guy, and you've got him down perfectly. I would have liked to see what his reaction to his plan failing was, but it's also not necessary, since the satisfaction of putting him away is good enough.

I also wondered why Vera was so talkative--since I remember a lot of ellipses in AJ--but I like the idea of her slowly learning how to approach her new life without her dad and gaining enough confidence to stop hesitating between words.
All in all, great case, and I hope you'll be doing more in the future because that was a blast!
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : @Stelle :
I'm very glad that you enjoyed playing The Broken Turnabout! It's an idea that I've wanted to explore for a long time and I consider myself very lucky to have been able to do it. The process went really smoothly; at some points, it felt like the case was really writing itself (though I know I'm not always going to get that lucky when making fan cases).

Athena Cykes, while not the most pivotal player in The Broken Turnabout, suited her role as being someone who's new to the case quite well. Originally it was going to be Trucy, but looking back I think Athena definitely fits in a lot better. Having someone who was completely new to the case and had no preconceived notions about it (aside from the Judge's Brother as the judge, since he's not really on the player's side) helped keep the case fresh, I think, if that makes any sense.

Von Karma wasn't originally part of the idea for Broken, but as I was starting I quickly realized that there weren't really any other candidates for who could be the prosecutor! Then it became a matter of justifying her presence, which led right into what became the focus of the narrative. Really, I was just channeling the inner muse, y'know?

As for Gavin, he's honestly one of my favorite characters to write. He's a horrible person and I hate him, but he's the type that you just love to hate. His cultivated way of speaking and trolling tendencies make him the perfect tool to get under Apollo's, and by extension the player's, skin.

And yeah, Vera's developed a bit over the course of a year. Actually, in the version that Enthalpy ended up beta-testing Vera's recovering-hermit status was emphasized a lot more to the point of it feeling forced. It's thanks to Enthalpy that you and everyone else who played after him didn't have to deal with that.

And that's all I've got to say. Wow, sorry for dumping all that text on you... for some reason I guess I was just feeling kind of chatty, I dunno. I feel like I don't usually reply with that much to say. Ah, well. It's out there now. Thanks again for playing and thank you for the comments! ^-^
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Zohar the Shiny »

A lot of this probably isn't spoilers, but better safe than sorry!
Spoiler : :
Hmm. This case makes me feel quite conflicted. First of all, the quality of the writing and the amount of time evidently put into it garners major respect from me immediately. The presentation, with a few exceptions, was impeccable, and the cross-examinations were handled elegantly and fairly. Certainly, even a player who had never played 4-4 before would never feel overwhelmed, and for that I commend you. On the other hand, though, there were just so many "Oh NO!" moments, so many screen-shakes, so much of Apollo thinking "What?! I didn't expect that! What can I do now?" Tonally, the dialogue and the narrative at hand never really felt like they matched up to me; I'm not sure if the pacing was really appropriate for this type of case.

The main problem to me with this case, to be honest, was that it felt like it had no purpose. No purpose as a mystery, no purpose for the plot, and no purpose as a fancase. I know that might sound harsh, but here's my logic: Apollo Justice, reviled by many as it was, spurred quite possibly the most fan analyses of any game in the series, mostly about Phoenix himself. Was he justified in having the forged card used to catch Kristoph? How had he changed in the seven years he spent disbarred? Was he blinded by thoughts of revenge? Did those feelings cloud his judgments and render 4-4 unfair? And how does the idea of true justice fit into all of this? Claims have been argued and cases have been made about these kinds of points, and it seems to me the The Broken Turnabout doesn't introduce enough new thoughts to justify its themes. It is perfectly acceptable for a case to present these sorts of ideas, but what did we really learn about Phoenix, Apollo, Kristoph, and the gain from this case. It seems to me that the only truly unique ideas came from Franziska, a walking ball of anger who apparently had manifested for the pure purpose about feeling enraged and seeking revenge... but actually had sort of changed her mind and decided to follow the status quo.

So in the end, I looked back and thought, "I want a birthday party like that!" No, wait, I actually thought "Wait, what? That was it? I saved the case by... explaining the events and ignoring Ace Attorney logic? What exactly did I accomplish?" Even the mystery and its solution were, by their very nature, derivative of 4-4, and because the plot didn't really hold up for me either, I couldn't find myself truly enjoying the case. Of course, the fact that I've always preferred the mystery aspect probably prejudiced me from the beginning, so there is that. Anyway, in the end, I felt that this case did a lot of things right, but those successes were stuck inside a framework that didn't allow them to flourish on their own.

Boy, it really makes me feel sad to write all these criticisms of a case that I know was executed skillfully and cleverly, so I'm going to end this by saying that I look forward to your future cases, and I hope that I can enjoy all of their aspects to the fullest!
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Calvinball »

*WARNING: The spoiler tag below contains a LOT of the case author's thoughts on the case. But the meaning of a work is in the eye of the beholder, and that includes the eye of the author. If you're writing a review or would just rather keep your own thoughts of the case uninfluenced, then feel free to skip this. But if you'd still like to read this, go ahead! Just know that I sort of laid my thoughts on the case out bare, in a sense, but just because I say so that doesn't make it true about The Broken Turnabout.
Spoiler : @Zohar the Shiny :
Don't feel bad for having criticisms! Nothing is enjoyed by everyone but the opinions of those who don't enjoy a work can be very important, as their analysis of the work isn't influenced by a rosy perception, leading to them seeing different things. The way I see it, combination of constructively positive and constructively negative reviews can be one of the best ways to learn as much as possibly about how to improve.

There are a few points I would like to respond to in your review, either to give my thoughts or to say "yeah, you're right."
Zohar the Shiny wrote:First of all, the quality of the writing and the amount of time evidently put into it garners major respect from me immediately. The presentation, with a few exceptions, was impeccable, and the cross-examinations were handled elegantly and fairly. Certainly, even a player who had never played 4-4 before would never feel overwhelmed, and for that I commend you.
Thank you for the compliments on the presentation! It took a long time to get it as good as it is and even now it's not quite where I want it (you mentioned how there were too many screen shakes and that's something I've been trying to work on not overusing). Hopefull I can improve for next time!
Zohar the Shiny wrote:On the other hand, though, there were just so many "Oh NO!" moments, so many screen-shakes, so much of Apollo thinking "What?! I didn't expect that! What can I do now?" Tonally, the dialogue and the narrative at hand never really felt like they matched up to me; I'm not sure if the pacing was really appropriate for this type of case.
If I may, I'm not entirely certain what you mean by the pacing not matching up with the narrative. The case is certainly fast paced, almost brutal at times, but I'm not sure I see how it diminishes the narrative. The fast-pacing, indeed, is vital to the tone of the case, leaving the player desperate for a way out and also for answers, which the narrative ultimately provides. I think I see what you're saying, but I guess I just don't understand. I'd write more, but my only real rebuttal is that "I don't agree" and that's a lousy rebuttal that you probably don't want to read for any longer now.
Zohar the Shiny wrote:The main problem to me with this case, to be honest, was that it felt like it had no purpose...quo. [ellipses-ified to save space]
The "mystery" of The Broken Turnabout certainly is forgettable inasmuch as it is nonexistent, which it is. That's what I get for making a narratively driven case that revisits a canon case, I suppose! But as for its purpose, I think it has one for myself, at least.

For me, the purpose of The Broken Turnabout as a fancase is addressing what canon never addressed. You mentioned that Apollo Justice sparked a great deal of discussion in the Ace Attorney community (which I'll have to admit I never ended up participating in), but despite that Capcom never really addressed it. The more questionable tactics Phoenix used were glossed over with the release of Dual Destinies and the talk in the community remained that: just talk. In creating The Broken Turnabout I wanted to bring... closure, I guess? Address it at the very least, resolve it if I could... and I feel like what happens in Broken falls somewhere in between those two goals.

You say that you don't feel as though you learned anything about any of the characters by playing Broken. Well, you're right that we didn't really learn anything about Apollo or Gavin. They're largely the same at the end of the case, though Apollo might have a big head from winning a case with two pieces of evidence.

As for Phoenix, though, I think we have learned something. We learned that he's sorry. Dual Destinies didn't even talk about the Jurist System or the forged card, so we didn't know anything about how Phoenix felt, or what he thought. But in making Broken I think I learned that Phoenix is sorry. He feels guilty. He got caught up in his own excitement, in this "do what I have to do" mentality he created and he ended up doing something he feels ashamed of now that he's an attorney again. We see past the "ace attorney" into a flawed, broken, and human person who is trying to amend for his error by becoming an honest lawyer again and raising an agency filled with bright recruits who are ready to stick to truth and honor. We see more of his motivations, more of his weaknesses, but also more of his convictions and strengths and their sources.

As for Franziska, I think we learn at least a little about her as well. I don't want to say too much, since I believe Enthalpy is writing an analysis of the character implications of Broken for Franziska, but I'd say that what we've learned is that she's grown but still has a long way to go. Like Phoenix, she fell into the trap of "do what I have to do." At the same time, she's matured and sees her error, though, like Phoenix, not until it's too late. She didn't decide to go with the "status quo," but she did decide that what she was trying to do wasn't worth it, that it was the wrong path, the wrong approach. (And it was the wrong approach. In the end, Franziska just had to talk to Phoenix. If she'd talked to him sooner she'd have realized that he had already learned her "lesson" on his own and felt his own guilt for it.)

And as for an overall purpose for the plot? I suppose you're looking for a deeper meaning for the narrative, a theme. Looking at it now, what I pull from what I brought physical form to is that you can't do the right thing by doing the wrong thing. Phoenix tries and fails and Franziska tries and fails. And even when they thought they'd succeeded, neither could ignore their own wrongdoings, even in the face of success. (If you can't guess by now, my view on philosophy is largely deontological)

But hey, that's just me. Like beauty, art is in the eye of the beholder. If there's nothing valuable in this for you, well, for you you're right. I can only hope that you'll enjoy what I make next more. Again, thank you for the comments. You've left me with a lot to think about. I hope that what I make next will be something you can enjoy more and, well, if it isn't, I'm sure you'll give me a lot to think about again! ^-^
Spoiler : EDIT :
In retrospect, calling my fancase "art" is a little egotistical.
Last edited by Calvinball on Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Zohar the Shiny »

Spoiler : :
Thinking about it deeper, it has occurred to me that a lot of the issues I thought that I had with the case stemmed from one aspect alone. You mentioned at one point,
calvinball wrote: The fast-pacing, indeed, is vital to the tone of the case, leaving the player desperate for a way out and also for answers, which the narrative ultimately provides.
And there lay my confusion. Or rather, that was the kind of thing I assumed I would encounter in this case. But when I asked earlier about "What did we learn?" what I really meant was "What are the audience's questions, and what are our answers?" In most conventional cases, we have big questions like "Who killed Alex Smith?" or "How could the unbreakable locked room be circumvented?" or even minor details such as "Why did Ms. Fernando lie about the temperature of the coffee cup?" Broken, though, isn't an ordinary case. We already know who killed Drew Misham, and why he did it, and how he did it. As a result of this more introspective plot, you instead encourage the reader to pose more introspective questions (at least, that's how I see it): "What are Franziska's real goals?"; "What does Phoenix really think about the case/the jury system/his disbarment?"; "How can Apollo prove his case?" These questions are perfectly valid, but we must also look at their answers.

In most trials, "The Reveal" plays a large role, providing satisfaction and fulfillment for the player and letting them finally learn the full truth about the case. We'll all be surprised and amazed when we learn that the killer was actually the victim's half-uncle's stepfather's cousin who used his intimate knowledge of the family mansion to set up a Rube-Goldberg device that not only instantly killed the boy but also removed (almost) all traces on its own. The Broken Turnabout's reveal, on the other hand, feels more like an un-reveal. There is no trick, there's hardly a twist (honest question that probably sounds really insensitive: was the main twist supposed to be Apollo's turnabout or Phoenix and Franziska's conversation?), and it turns out that everything the player thought was true about the world and the case... was actually true. Really, this comes down to a problem of my misplaced expectations: this case is not made to turn everything in canon upside down, but to actually connect everything and create a more cohesive world. I guess that I just felt that this sort of story, though important, wasn't all that interesting. Wow, sorry, I bet I sounded like such a jerk there, huh! Well, I hope that all makes my thinking a little bit clearer and helps you further understand the kinds of points I was making before.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : @Zohar the Shiny :
Thank you for the re-response! It actually clears up a lot. The Broken Turnabout, lacking a mystery, really doesn't have any sort of huge twists in the same way that most Ace Attorney cases do as far as the crime is concerned. The crime really is what the player thinks it is, and Franziska's ability to trick the entire court is what makes things so tense and raises the stakes.

But that's a digression. There are really only two "reveals" in Broken. The first is DEFINITELY an unreveal, that being Apollo's turnabout which contains the question "How do I prove my case?" and has the answer "I don't have to." Not exactly expected, but it doesn't answer the question.

The second "reveal" of sorts (and what I'd argue is the "main twist" if there is one in Broken) would have to be Phoenix's conversation with Franziska, since that's where we learn of and see their character development, their motivation, about how they feel and think and how they've changed.

Like you said, this case wasn't meant to turn canon on its head, it was meant to nestle in between the cracks and tie up the loose ends. And don't feel bad about not enjoying your experience; some things are simply a matter of preference and no amount of me rambling in spoilers can change that. Thank you again for your thoughts and for the re-response, as it definitely helped me better understand what you're saying.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by clcman »

Oops. Forgot to post my SoC/comments.

Warning: Long.
Spoiler : SoC :
Part The Only:
Well, not sure if my terrible internet got all of the stuff downloaded, but here we go…
That is the most annoying *ring* sound ever. Ever.
Apollo, you DO know that you can re-record voicemail messages, right?
I can’t decide if Apollo and Trucy should have voice blips for the voicemail. I’m leaning towards “yes,” just because it’s so clearly them talking. (That said, I can still tell them apart, so yeah.)
Something dramatic has happened… Dramatic music is playing… The image is slowly loading… Slowly…
Oh, hi Vera. Why do you have Phoenix’s phone? Also, you’re on the right side of the screen for some reason.
Why is Apollo in the lobby at 10 AM? Normally it’s like 9:50 or something, and then you go into court so that the whole “Court is now in session” thing happens at 10.
And… evidence dump. Well, I haven’t played 4-4 in a couple of years, so hopefully that won’t be much of a problem.
I find it suspicious that ANY trial transcript, even an AA world one, would use the term “promptly flips out.”
Hi Vera. How’s life? Oh, wait. Life sucks for you at the moment. Let me see what I can do about that.
Vera is literally drawing…. Nothing. Huh. She must have an invisible colored pencil. By which I mean a colored pencil whose color is invisible, not a pencil that is itself invisible and also colored. Just so we’re clear. Like the colored pencil lead.
Athena? Really? Your first act of the case is to knock out our defendant? GOOOOOOD going. On the plus side, now we can get a day’s extension due to defendant unconsciousness.
Hey, shouldn’t Athena have been on the voicemail message as well? Or what about Phoenix?
Athena, haven’t you learned by now that it’s hard to exaggerate about ANYONE in this world?
Vera probably WOULD run away from a bunny. Or a rock. Or a cotton ball.
Aaaand I was wondering when we’d get more profiles.
Typo: “(When I first met her, expressed herself by drawing and could hardly talk without fainting.)” Should be “met her, SHE expressed herself by drawing” (ideally “expressed herself ONLY by drawing” or maybe “herself MAINLY by drawing.” Or “primarily”)
Vera: I’m still confused. Apollo: As am I. Athena: As am I. Trucy: I’m not even here and I’m also confused.
Whaaaaaaaat!? Kristoph Gavin was the true murderer? What nonsense!
Also, it feels… weird to see Apollo refer to Kristoph as “Gavin.” I mean, I guess that’s technically correct, but still…
The Jurist System was technically illegal, wasn’t it. HOBO PHOENIIIIIIIIIIIX!!!!!
Bailiff: Court will begin in three minutes! Even though by the timestamps it should have begun at the same time that this scene did!
Le sigh indeed, Athena. Le sigh.
Oh, wait. This trial is for “Vera Misham eh.” Totally different person. Never mind. NOT GUILTY!! *confetti*
So, we’ve got Vera as the defendant, Athena as co-counsel, His Blondeness as judge, Franziska as prosecution… this should be interesting. And probably painful for Apollo’s face.
Uh, Franziska? Why would the judge dream of foolish dreams? Are all of his dreams literally just him dreaming about dreaming about things? But if he’s dreaming of dreaming, then all of his dreams will be of himself dreaming, which means…
Franziska: Do you believe that I, Prosecutor Franziska von Karma would stand before you unprepared? Apollo: Ye- *whipped*
No, Athena. YOUR knowledge of law history should be MORE Phoenix-centered.
Wait… precisamente is an actual word? I always thought it was just something Redd White made up! Huh. You learn something every day.
Hey, at least Franziska won’t forge evidence. Forging evidence in a case about forged evidence would be… unwise.
Franziska: I’m here for one thing: Revenge. Orange revenge, to be precise. Miles Edgeworth got his own set of games and appearances in all but one of the others. That fool Klavier Gavin appeared in Dual Destinies and was even voiced in an anime cutscene. Godot has only appeared once, and everyone still adores him. Even that idiot Winston Payne has gotten more appearances than I have! I am Phoenix Wright’s ideal mate rival, and I will prove it! Apollo: But I’m not Phoenix. Franziska: SHUT UP!
I sympathize, Apollo, on being monolingual. I’m using Google Translate so much in this game…
Me: You know, you’d really think that a prosecutor would get in trouble for publically declaring that they are prosecuting a case for revenge by proxy. Granted, the subject of the revenge isn’t the defendant, but still… aren’t there any ethics boards around here? Judge: Well, there’s the Prosecutorial Investigation Committee. Me: Right. Them. Everything makes so much more sense now.
Nevertheless, this is a serious violation of the concept of double jeopardy, one of the three actual legal principles (along with statute of limitations and right to a speedy trial) that the AA courts follow. And even with those other two, they still find ways to mess up statute of limitations, leading them to dramatically overcompensate on speedy trial to the point where they miss the entire of idea of it in the first place.
Typo: “It would've restored people's trust in the courts, and juror's verdicts would've been just and sensible.” Should be “and THE JURORS’ verdicts”
Franziska: I refuse to respond to such drivel. Apollo: But you just responded to it. If you were refusing to respond, then you wouldn’t have said anything at all.
How could Phoenix have possibly biased the testimonies? The only people testifying were Vera (can’t do much about bias there), Spark Brushel (only witness, not really a lot of options) and Kristoph, who testified AGAINST everything the pro-Phoenix side said.
Congratulations, Franziska. Your opening statement has said absolutely NOTHING about the actual facts of the case. Also, did you do the same thing for the 40 years’ worth of cases your dad screwed up? ‘Cause you might want to worry about that first.
Okay, ranting out of the way. Let’s get this show on the road. We’ve got the stamp, we’ve got the red envelope, we’ve got Brushel’s testimony. Even if we can’t prove who the forgery client is, we can prove that they killed Drew, not Vera, and Kristoph’s already in jail, so screw him. Let’s get this done.
(It’s not going to be even close to that easy, is it…)
So… we’re going to lose the Yellow Letter Recreation and the Forged Diary Page? Well, if we’re not trying to prove Kristoph’s guilt, that shouldn’t be a problem…
Oh, yes. FRANZISKA “I’m here for revenge by proxy” von Karma is the one complaining about an excess of bias.
Franziska, “I’m a von Karma therefore I am perfect, therefore you can trust me to give you an unbiased evidence list in the case I have repeatedly stated I only took to get revenge on someone and if you don’t agree I’ll whip you in the face” is not a valid legal argument. Especially given that we can specifically cite a von Karma for whom that does not apply. All this does is destroy whatever was left of your hypocritical, self-righteous façade that this is a fair trial, or that justice means anything to you in this instance. *cracks knuckles* I’m going to be looking forwards to crushing you.
(On a meta note, if you haven’t noticed, I’m REALLY pissed at Franziska right now. Normally I’m like “Hey Franziska, let’s go at it, I’ll annoy you, you’ll try and whip me but can’t because you’re a fictional character and we’ll solve a mystery together (granted, against your will, but still).” But this? This is the old, pre-character-development “the defendant is guilty due to spiritual possession, hey, look at this evidence that I can’t submit but can still influence you” Franziska, who tends to tick me off quite a lot. Not that that’s necessarily a bad thing, and I can see maybe how Phoenix’s disbarment could cause a relapse in her behavior, so if this is what you’re going for, good job. I should probably actually get back to the case now.)
Judge: Franziska was the only person here not involved in the original trial and thus, despite SPECIFICALLY STATING that she has an ulterior motive biasing her, is the only party the court can trust to be non-biased.
Alternatively:
Judge: In the interest of a fair trial, we will only accept evidence from one side.
So, the committee took the word of convicted murderer Kristoph Gavin. The one who claimed he killed a man because he’s evil and whose response to the Jurist System was “I’ll get my revenge on them!”
I blame Senator Lemonsnout. *deep breath*
LEMONSNOOOOOOUT!!!!!!
[Meta Note: Having completed this and read various other people’s remarks, I find it amusing that Ferdielance ALSO shouted Lemonsnout’s name at the top of his metaphorical lungs upon reading the clipping.]
Hey, at least we’ve got Ema back. I guess it’ll probably be 30 seconds before she gets accused of biasing things too, but that gives us a way to re-introduce the stamp, which is what we really need.
And Ema got promoted! Yah!
I just had the mental image of Ema Skye and Kristoph Gavin working together. Why does that combo somehow… work?
Franziska, that testimony was OUR version of events. Of course there aren’t any contradictions in it! Let’s press everything anyways, just to be safe.
Nonsense, Franziska. Congress is the most efficient political body in human history.
So atroquinine really IS Borginian cocoon toxin! Wait… where the hell did Kristoph get that stuff in the first place?
Athena, do you remember what I said about how it’s impossible to exaggerate about people in this universe? Yeah, that applies to Brushel too. (I personally don’t find him that annoying but…)
Woulda thought we’d bring back the coffee cup in the “evidence that led to Vera’s arrest.”
Once again, they’re just calling Kristoph “Gavin.” At least in Ema’s statement she should refer to him as “Kristoph Gavin,” especially given that there was a second Gavin involved with the case.
Aaand Apollo’s the only one who can remember Ema’s new title.
Oh, Franziska, I’m sorry if I’m not properly letting you revenge. Maybe I’ve got some other priorities.
Franziska… YOU are the one who runs on pride. I know you might not realize this, but normal people don’t respond to setbacks by breaking things. Or hitting people. Normal people also don’t talk about how perfect they are, rant about orange revenge or demand people call them “your grace.” You are projecting so much onto Phoenix right now.
And, despite Franziska specifically explaining that she cares more about overturning the previous verdict than the truth, the judge still seems to not understand how this bias thing works.
And… Athena’s speaking Czech. Huh.
Aw… Touching Ema + Vera moment.
Apollo: (This has to be the weirdest favor I’m ever going to do for a friend.)
The disturbing thing was that he didn’t realize how incredibly wrong he was until the very moment when Trucy asked him to help her smuggle an elephant through Zheng Fa customs in order to stop a serial killer from stealing a diamond-encrusted gold doughnut.
Wait… Ema left before she could tell the judge about the stamp-shaped atroquinine stain! We need that to show how the murder was actually committed!
Also, according to the timestamp we had the entire intro lobby sequence, an opening statement, some procedural arguments, a cross-examination AND a ten-minute recess in 1 hour, 2 minutes.
Wait… why did Franziska need to prepare her witness in the first place? Shouldn’t they have already been prepared? Oh, yeah. It’s Brushel. Never mind.
“Forgin’ Attorney Turned Innocent Attorney Turned Vengeful Attorney” You forgot Ace Attorney, Brushel.
Ha ha! Brushel is more annoying to Franziska than he is to me!
Apollo: And, contrary to your impression of my impression, Ms. Von Karma, you are most definitely to be mocked.
Pressing statement 1 does indeed open up quite a contradiction.
Franziska: Why on earth would Mr. Spark Brushel attempt to interview a man known for being a “murder victim?” Apollo: You haven’t known this guy very long, have you?
Apollo: Your Honor, I’d like that statement added to the witness’s testimony. *Brushel’s Testimony Added to the Court Record* “And calling and calling and calling and calling…” HOLD IT!
You know, I’d really think that Brushel would remember this point from last time. Oh well…
Besides, Athena, Brushel’s testimony becomes meaningless without the timing contradiction. If Franziska edited that out, there would be no point to him testifying at all.
Aaand Franziska has an answer to the contradiction. Obviously. The correct one too, no less.
Awesome! Another witness! Now we can prove the stuff that WE ALREADY PROVED OVER A YEAR AGO BUT THAT FRANZISKA REFUSES TO ALLOW INTO THE COURT RECORD.
And, once again, the court is trying to overcompensate the right to a speedy trial to make up for all of the other rights that it DOESN’T provide.
I know that both judges are vulnerable to suggestion and horrendous bias, but this is just ridiculous.
Nevertheless, it’s not like a recess would actually HELP us…
This music seems familiar… Oh, of course. The witness is… LARRY BUTZ!!
Wait, no, no, it’s Kristoph. Hi, Kristoph, ya douche! How’s life in maximum security prison?
(Also, why is Kristoph just NOW getting a profile? It’s not like they haven’t been talking about him.)
And I’m stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck!!!!! [I got one of those annoying frame-skip glitches where it won’t advance and it won’t let you load a save, so I was stuck there with Kristoph staring at me until I reloaded the trial]
You DO know that there are none-badge Kristoph sprites, right?
I feel like Kristoph would refer to Apollo as either “Apollo” to be mockingly friendly or “Mr. Justice” to be mockingly polite. Either way, he’d be mocking about it. Just using “Justice” sounds weird to me. Maybe because the word justice is getting tossed around in contexts besides Apollo’s name.
Apollo is not good at this self-control thing. Also, if Kristoph was talking to him like a friend, he’d be saying “Apollo.”
Apollo: I apologize, Your Honor. I’ve never been very good at being polite to convicted murderers.
Well, at least Kristoph is sticking with his “I killed a guy because I’m a terrible human being” story. I was afraid he might be arguing that Phoenix framed him for that too. Probably because Phoenix kinda did. Also, he’s giving the judge plenty of reason to distrust him, so that might be a good thing…
Franziska: The witness has no reason to lie. Apollo: The witness has EVERY REASON TO LIE, YOU IDIOT!!
Apollo, Kristoph’s plan seems pretty simple. Screw with you and Phoenix.
Um… Kristoph? How did you benefit AT ALL from this scheme? (The alleged “help Vera murder her dad” scheme, not your current one)
Your Honor, surely even YOU knew that saying “well, if nothing else is coming up, we can start” will cause something else to come up.
Also, it’s not Kristoph interjecting to screw us over. It’s Franziska. I suppose I shouldn’t be that surprised.
Franziska, YOU are not the one to complain about others’ courtroom “quirks.”
Okay, okay, fine. We won’t use the Mood Matrix or Perceive as evidence. Not like we really were going to anyways. But she’s not going to be able to stop Apollo from Perceiving unless she makes him wear a blindfold or something. Surely he’s allowed to LOOK at the witness, right?
Also, we really don’t need any special techniques to break this claim. All we really need is the Red Envelope Letter showing that the stamp came from someone other than Vera. That letter that was found at the crime scene by the same investigator that Franziska considered trustworthy enough to have testify earlier. But no, that critical piece of case-breaking evidence is “too biased” because, uh, it shows the defendant is innocent.
Anyways, it’s not like we really need Perceive to show us where Kristoph is lying. We already know what the truth is.
Right?
TYPO: In the co-counsel conversation, Athena says “Apollo, you’re voice is still full of rage.” Should be “YOUR voice.”
Hey, Kristoph’s admitting to the forgery. That’s progress.
Of course, he’s still not admitting the IMPORTANT forgery, so…
And yeah, I really think Kristoph using “Mr. Justice” instead of “Justice” would feel better. But whatever.
Fundamental flaw in Kristoph’s claim: If Vera was suicidal, then why didn’t she try again? Eh, I guess Kristoph would argue that she thought she’d gotten away with it, so she had no reason to. But why would she use the nail polish before actually getting a Guilty verdict?
So… Kristoph claims that he’s so loyal to Vera (as her accomplice) that he didn’t rat her out even after her attorney was accusing him? How… unlike everything I know about him.
Kristoph Gavin uttering the words “I was trying to protect Vera Misham.” Something else to add to the list of “Things I Never Expected to See.”
One slightly annoying thing was that the first time around I asked Kristoph about “Why bring this up now” before “Why suicide?” and got the extra testimony amended. This took away the ability to go back and ask the first question. Might want to do something about that (I reloaded a save to look at both of them)
Judge: Truly, the mind of a killer is sick and twisted! Apollo: I agree with you for a completely different reason, Your Honor.
Judge: Mr. Justice! Is this some sort of confession? Apollo: No, Your Honor, but yes, I totally could have done a better job of this than Vera allegedly did. Any murder plan that takes seven years and still only succeeds by luck AND gets you arrested straightaway is a bad plan.
Judge: You wouldn’t want to see how I deal with murderers! Apollo: By the looks of it, you cozy right up beside them and let them tell you nonsensical bedtime stories.
To have a problem or to not have a problem. That is the question. And the answer is: when in doubt, have a problem.
And hey! Apollo saw the same problem I did: Vera wouldn’t have been trying to kill herself until she actually lost the case. Of course, Kristoph is going to claim that she screwed up and forgot about the nail polish…
Or not. I suppose that explanation works. I would check the trial transcript, except I CAN’T, THANKS FRANZISKA.
And man, I never expected to see the day when Franziska von Karma and Kristoph Gavin were working together. Truly fanfiction is a wonderful thing.
Moving on to the end of the testimony, time to emphasize the “Why now?”: What made Kristoph “change his mind”?
Kristoph, are you really claiming that Vera not confessing her “involvement” to bail you out so offended you that you felt the need to rat both of you out?
And, now we’re at the crux of the problem with the prosecution’s case: It’s Kristoph’s word against Vera’s. At this point, the Kristoph solo murderer theory and Vera-Kristoph team-up theory are roughly equally valid. As the prosecution cannot disprove the Kristoph solo theory, the principle of “Innocent Until Proven Guilty” gives the win to Apollo. But wait, this is Ace Attorney world. The judge is totally going to take the word of a convicted murderer, admitted forger, alleged accomplice and self-proclaimed “evil, evil man” who totally has a reason to lie about this.
The cross-examination music comes back for half a second between the end of the second contradiction and the judge saying “cross-examination over.” Not sure if there’s anything you can do about that.
Franziska, you shouldn’t be especially surprised that we’re accusing Kristoph. You also shouldn’t be especially surprised that we don’t have any direct evidence, given that this trial has no evidence (specifically thanks to you). For that matter, the prosecution has not submitted one piece of actual evidence for the entire trial. We have what is essentially an autopsy report. That’s it. Now, they’ve been piggybacking off of the previous trial’s allegedly “tainted” evidence without actually putting it in the record, but at this point Kristoph’s testimony is the only thing they’ve got. They haven’t even scratched the Kristoph-solo-murderer theory, just brushed it aside and replaced it with a not-especially plausible alternative involving a 12-year-old girl plotting the worst murder-suicide ever and Kristoph helping her out of the goodness evilness of his heart.
Yeah, kinda expected Phoenix to show up just then.
I really would have thought Phoenix would call her Franziska. If only to aggravate her.
Phoenix testifying? Yeah, I can live with that. Franziska HAS been talking non-stop about how involved in the case he was.
Franziska: OBJECTION! You cannot allow Phoenix Wright to testify! He is entirely untrustworthy, unlike that convicted murderer and self-proclaimed “evil man” I just had testify!
Franziska: OBJECTION! Phoenix Wright was not even THERE when the crime took place! Just like the witness I just had testify!
Oh, suuuure. Franziska gets a ten-minute recess no problem, but Apollo? No luck there.
Yeah… still feel like Phoenix should call Franziska by her first name, at least to her face.
If Franziska could, she would totally submit that one frame of flashback as evidence.
And her revenge is… to teach us that justice shouldn’t be used for revenge? Well, I guess that’s not EXACTLY hypocrisy, seeing as Franziska has been using INjustice for her revenge instead of actual justice.
This music sounds familiar, but I can’t quite place it…
Franziska, Phoenix losing wasn’t just a lost game of cards that he was upset about because he’s a sore loser. Zak Gramarye spent seven years on the run and was MURDERED because Phoenix couldn’t get Kristoph. Trucy lost her father TWICE because of this case. Justice is not a game, and people get hurt really badly when it’s not done properly.
It doesn’t feel right to hear the bailiff say “Court will reconvene in only a minute.” “One minute” is much better.
Phoenix: Don’t worry, Apollo. When the time comes, you’ll know what to do. Hint: It involves finger pointing.
Judge: You’re darn right it doesn’t! Proper procedure and fairness are for reality! This is Ace Attorney, where the court can do whatever the hell it feels like!
Once again, Franziska, you are not allowed to complain about courtroom antics.
Franziska, you should know by now NEVER to allow HoboPhoenix to testify about whatever it is he wants to testify about.
To cross-examine or not to cross-examine? That’s not even a question. ALWAYS CROSS-EXAMINE!
So, in order to win, I have to present one piece of evidence from a case with no evidence in a no-presses-allowed one-statement cross-examination given by Phoenix Wright. ATTORNEY’S BADGE, DON’T FAIL ME NOW!
Judge: Are you trying to make a mockery of this court? Apollo: Not any more than already has been made. This has all been very interesting, Ms. von Karma, but you’ve forgotten one thing. I’m not just any old loudmouthed, point-haired large-foreheaded weirdo. I possess a power that you will never have. BEHOLD THE POWER OF ATTORNEY!!!
In other words: Apollo: Phoenix Wright! Your statement contradicts my attorney’s badge!
(That was a very clever puzzle. It might have been more difficult for me, but the co-counsel conversation tip of “just look for something that proves the statement wrong” REALLY helped but didn't actually give it away, thus allowing me to deduce the answer immediately and still feel clever at the same time.)
Aw, I really wanted to present Phoenix as my witness instead of Vera. Nevertheless, the case is, as I said, a he-said, she-said.
Apollo: Vera! Did you kill your dad? Vera: No. Apollo: Problem solved.
Must… not… say… “Do the Macarena”…
I knew we would be presenting this newspaper sooner or later…
Yeah, Your Honor, we probably should give Franziska a chance to respond before giving a verdict. Just saying, you kind of asked for that one.
Franziska: Kristoph Gavin has no reason to lie here. Phoenix: …mmph… Franziska: What is this, Mr. Phoenix Wright? Are you… crying? Phoenix: …mmph… …mmph… …AHAHAHAHAHA!! I can’t believe you said that with a straight face! Do you know who Kristoph Gavin IS!? He’s a homicidal narcissist with an inflated ego and delusions of grandeur who feels little empathy for anyone and is incapable of taking responsibility for his own mistakes. If he has no reason to lie, he will find one!
To raise an objection or to not raise an objection. That is also not the question, because the answer is: OF COURSE!
REBUTTAL!
Huh, I expected to have to say “the contradiction is on page 2.”
Apollo could also point out that Kristoph hates Phoenix and Apollo for putting him on death row in the first place. That would be a motive.
Only presenting the prosecution’s profile as the final evidence could be awesome enough to summon forth the Magical Trick Society remix from the heavens to rain down righteous justicy goodness upon the court.
Apollo: Your case was nothing more than a paper tiger – all bark and no bite. Athena: Tigers don’t bark, Apollo. Apollo: Shut up.
I think it would be more appropriate to say “the prosecution rests.”
Must… not… object… to… Not Guilty verdict…
Wait, that last section was like 2 and a half hours? That doesn’t seem right…
Apollo: Actually, Athena, I literally cannot think of a contribution you made to this entire case. I totally could have done this with Trucy. Or solo.
So Franziska WANTED us to beat her… I figured as much.
I wonder what this “OBJECTION” button does…
Franziska: Can’t you see I want to wallow in peace? Phoenix: Actually, that’s why I’m here. I despise all forms of peaceful wallowing.
I feel like Phoenix’s Locket should be at the top of the Court Record (with the badge and magatama), not the bottom.
I can see Franziska trying to reach out to a disbarred Phoenix… as long as she refused to admit it happened afterwards.
Phoenix, give her a hug. A non-shipping hug of course.
Now, Phoenix should DEFINITELY be using Franziska’s first name here.
WHAT THE!? WHY DID THE PERSPECTIVE FLIP AT THE LAST FRAME!? WHOSE EYES WAS I WATCHING PHOENIX THROUGH!?!
Grammar Nazing, but I’d say that the sprite credits should have periods. May just be me.
Aaaand… Phoenix has completely lost his excuse for not getting there earlier.
Spoiler : Final Thoughts :
Well, that was… interesting. Certainly an unusual trial, given the lack of mystery, but I like the concept of “we know exactly what happened but that’s not going to help us much.” I’m reminded a lot of Hodou Okappa’s The Bitter Turnabout. If you’re unfamiliar with it (it’s also Featured, by the way), it’s basically a post 3-5 trial in which Phoenix, Maya, Edgeworth and Iris try to get Godot off the hook for killing Misty Fey. In both cases the player and the protagonists know the true solution to the mysteries, but they have to get the court to make the “right” decision, which the truth alone is not enough for. Both are also deconstructing some of the more morally ambiguous “good guy” actions in canon cases.
As you can tell from my SoC, I got REALLY pissed at Franziska early on. I suspected that her motivations were something like what they were supposed to be, but her constant slander of Apollo and self-righteous (despite being obviously hypocritical) behavior really rubbed me the wrong way. I’m not actually sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. I agree with her general points that Phoenix bent the rules a little far, but her attitude and presentation (as well as her obvious disregard for Vera’s well-being and ensuring that justice is done) made me really want to shut her down. On the other hand, I can see how the loss of Phoenix’s paragon status could affect Franziska worse than most of the other characters. Edgeworth was already pretty confident in his new mindset, but Franziska’s transition into a better person was a lot more fragile, and the disbarment could totally have sent her into a downhill spiral, and even lead her to “hate” Phoenix for “betraying” everything he allegedly stood for. Of course, in her heart she knew that this was ridiculous, hence why she left the newspaper clipping in the evidence. (That said, I think the clipping needed a little more “meat” to it to hide the important part. Just because it doesn’t feel like an actual article; just four random short pages tangentially related.)
Gameplay-wise, it feels a little rushed at some points (one testimony per witness, for example), but it’s not too short. The Phoenix testimony was brilliant, and it let me get out the primary flaw I had with Franziska’s case from the beginning: she can’t prove Vera did it, only damage our proof that Kristoph did and simply assert and assert and assert that Vera is the killer over and over without proof. One thing would be the Red Envelope: that’s the actual case-breaking evidence, showing that the client (whoever they are) sent the poisoned stamp. Vera would not have been able to reasonably fake that in such a way that Drew would be fooled and (if I remember correctly) it was found at the crime scene by Apollo, Trucy and Ema. Now, Franziska could have argued that Ema was biased in favor of Phoenix (I actually expected her to do that), but seeing as she didn’t, there’s no actual reason for her to refuse this evidence other than “it was the centerpoint of Apollo’s case.” That said, I guess Kristoph could claim that he sent the letter as a part of his plan with Vera. That’s unprovable of course, but so is all of Kristoph’s testimony…
I guess you put a spoiler warning for 4-4, but I feel like there should be something stronger or at the beginning of the case itself because The Broken Turnabout does not merely spoil 4-4; it literally does not make any sense without a pretty decent knowledge of 4-4. This is not a bad thing, given that the point of Broken is to deconstruct the flaws in that case and with HoboPhoenix’s behavior in general. But while other cases may assume that you’ve played most of the cases before, this one absolutely REQUIRES it. Again, totally justified given the circumstances, but it’s something you can warn people about without giving away exactly what the concept is.
Anyways, short version: I liked it, it does what it’s trying to do and it definitely deserved to win the comp. Also, congrats on the Featuring.
Last edited by clcman on Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Calvinball »

@clcman: Sorry it took me a while to respond! Life's been slightly hectic on my end the last couple of days, but now that things are calming down a little, I have the time to give this a proper response.

First of all, thank you for your SoC and your thoughts! Reading it led me to think about how things that could be polished in the case (some of which have already been taken care of, since they were quick fixes that I had time to do in the span of a few minutes). I've replied to some of your SoC (some parts have been cut to save space) and to your "Final Thoughts."
Spoiler : SoC response :
Why is Apollo in the lobby at 10 AM? Normally it’s like 9:50 or something, and then you go into court so that the whole “Court is now in session” thing happens at 10.

Hm, I hadn't realized it was ALWAYS ten o' clock. Fixed, along with other curious timespans (though, knowing me, I made things worse... I'm not the best at estimating how long these court sequences should take in real life...)

I find it suspicious that ANY trial transcript, even an AA world one, would use the term “promptly flips out.”

Hm... perhaps I should fix that. I hadn't thought much of it, since the transcript is taken away very quickly, but I suppose it being silly takes away from the immersion... I'll consider this for a bit longer.

Nevertheless, this is a serious violation of the concept of double jeopardy, one of the three actual legal principles (along with statute of limitations and right to a speedy trial) that the AA courts follow. And even with those other two, they still find ways to mess up statute of limitations, leading them to dramatically overcompensate on speedy trial to the point where they miss the entire of idea of it in the first place.

Hm... you're the second person to bring that up. I had thought it was implied that the "null and void" trial thing meant that it was a mistrial (which actually isn't covered by double jeopardy laws) but, as they say, explicit is better than implicit. Franziska now mentions the mistrial loophole while explaining the reason for revisiting the case.

Typo: “It would've restored people's trust in the courts, and juror's verdicts would've been just and sensible.” Should be “and THE JURORS’ verdicts”

"The" pushes it to four lines... do you think just "jurors'" works alright, or would it be best to just give into the madness and split it into two frames?

The disturbing thing was that he didn’t realize how incredibly wrong he was until the very moment when Trucy asked him to help her smuggle an elephant through Zheng Fa customs in order to stop a serial killer from stealing a diamond-encrusted gold doughnut.

Is this a reference to a fancase? Because if it is, I need to play it, and if it isn't, then someone needs to make it!

(Also, why is Kristoph just NOW getting a profile? It’s not like they haven’t been talking about him.)

I guess I was trying not to spoil that he would show up in person (although, about half of those who've played guessed that he would anyway). I mean, if there's a profile of someone in the court record, then you figure that person'll show up before long, y'know?

And I’m stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck!!!!! [I got one of those annoying frame-skip glitches where it won’t advance and it won’t let you load a save, so I was stuck there with Kristoph staring at me until I reloaded the trial]

Oh yikes. Is there anything I can do to prevent that, or is it an engine problem rather than a trial problem?

You DO know that there are none-badge Kristoph sprites, right?

I do now, but replacing all the sprites is a task that would take a lot of time I don't have. Maybe someday on AAO).

Once again, they’re just calling Kristoph “Gavin.” At least in Ema’s statement she should refer to him as “Kristoph Gavin,” especially given that there was a second Gavin involved with the case.

In the testimony, at least, using his full name pushes the frame to four lines, and while in most cases splitting it would just mean splitting it, splitting it here means more variables... more expressions... more press conversations... um, yeah. I know it sounds really lazy, but I don't have the time is the main thing, what with other AAO and real life projects going on.

However, I do have a reason for Apollo calling him Gavin. Normally, Apollo would probably say "Mr. Gavin." It's originally from when Apollo respected him and when he says it now, he's just trying to be a professional lawyer and be "respectful." By the time Gavin shows up to the trial in Broken, though, Apollo is very angry and he's not bothering with being "polite." You sort of see it with how he talks to Franziska, too. At first he starts with "Ms. von Karma" or "Prosecutor von Karma," but eventually it slides into him just saying "von Karma."

And to also address why Gavin says "Justice," it's supposed to be him being fake-friendly, and he's saying "Justice" rather than Apollo so it's the same type of friendliness as Phoenix and Miles have (who call each other "Wright" and "Edgeworth" respectively).


The cross-examination music comes back for half a second between the end of the second contradiction and the judge saying “cross-examination over.” Not sure if there’s anything you can do about that.

I think it's been fixed. I haven't gotten a chance to test it.

(That was a very clever puzzle. It might have been more difficult for me, but the co-counsel conversation tip of “just look for something that proves the statement wrong” REALLY helped but didn't actually give it away, thus allowing me to deduce the answer immediately and still feel clever at the same time.)

I'm glad you liked it! When creating that puzzle, I realized that it would be easy for a lot of people to overthink it, so I worded the co-counsel conversation the way it is. I don't really like it when the co-counsel conversation gives the answer away, but I think it's important that they nudge you into the right mindset when necessary, because otherwise you might end up thinking about the problem backwards.

Must… not… say… “Do the Macarena”…

Aw, it would've been worth it! (It really would've. There's no penalty in that sequence, what with it just being a memory thing, rather than a true "puzzle." But so you don't have to go back into the case to see it, here's the script.

Apollo: And so then Gavin hired Vera to do the Macarena!

Judge: ... I must be getting a little hard of hearing. You couldn't possibly have said what I thought you said. Mr Justice, please start again.

Apollo: Th-thank you, Your Honor.

Athena: ...

Apollo: Stop looking at me like that, I'm under a lot of pressure!
Spoiler : Final Thoughts :
Well, that was… interesting. Certainly an unusual trial, given the lack of mystery, but I like the concept of “we know exactly what happened but that’s not going to help us much.” I’m reminded a lot of Hodou Okappa’s The Bitter Turnabout. If you’re unfamiliar with it (it’s also Featured, by the way), it’s basically a post 3-5 trial in which Phoenix, Maya, Edgeworth and Iris try to get Godot off the hook for killing Misty Fey. In both cases the player and the protagonists know the true solution to the mysteries, but they have to get the court to make the “right” decision, which the truth alone is not enough for. Both are also deconstructing some of the more morally ambiguous “good guy” actions in canon cases.

I actually have played through The Bitter Turnabout, and I must confess partial inspiration from it. I say "partial" since in Bitter it is the player who is trying to misdirect the court while in Broken it is the player who must deal with the frustration of seeing the truth so easily spirited away.

As you can tell from my SoC, I got REALLY pissed at Franziska early on. I suspected that her motivations were something like what they were supposed to be, but her constant slander of Apollo and self-righteous (despite being obviously hypocritical) behavior really rubbed me the wrong way. I’m not actually sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. I agree with her general points that Phoenix bent the rules a little far, but her attitude and presentation (as well as her obvious disregard for Vera’s well-being and ensuring that justice is done) made me really want to shut her down.

I'd say it's a good thing. The Broken Turnabout is, in a lot of ways, an exercise in frustration. Enthalpy was a huge help in making sure the trial achieved the right balance of that, where the frustration gets the player invested in seeing Franziska and Gavin taken down rather than make them want to give up on the game. Franziska is definitely meant to be seen very negatively throughout the trial, since she is doing a pretty terrible thing for the sake of her revenge (I'd say a worse thing than Phoenix, since while he was desperate to put the culprit behind bars, she is callously trying to put someone innocent in prison instead (though in the end, both characters' actions are portrayed as negative and as being them going too far for the sake of a goal)).

On the other hand, I can see how the loss of Phoenix’s paragon status could affect Franziska worse than most of the other characters. Edgeworth was already pretty confident in his new mindset, but Franziska’s transition into a better person was a lot more fragile, and the disbarment could totally have sent her into a downhill spiral, and even lead her to “hate” Phoenix for “betraying” everything he allegedly stood for. Of course, in her heart she knew that this was ridiculous, hence why she left the newspaper clipping in the evidence. (That said, I think the clipping needed a little more “meat” to it to hide the important part. Just because it doesn’t feel like an actual article; just four random short pages tangentially related.)

I'm really glad you saw what I was going for! Yes, Franziska is probably among the few characters who simultaneously cares enough about Phoenix but also is prone to be upset enough with Phoenix to have this type of reaction. Edgeworth and Maya would be far more understanding, but Franziska would (and, in Broken canon, does indeed) take the disbarment personally (as absurd a thing that is). And as for the clipping, you're right about that. Given a few more days, I should be able to conjure something up to make it look a bit more like an actual article.

Gameplay-wise, it feels a little rushed at some points (one testimony per witness, for example), but it’s not too short. The Phoenix testimony was brilliant, and it let me get out the primary flaw I had with Franziska’s case from the beginning: she can’t prove Vera did it, only damage our proof that Kristoph did and simply assert and assert and assert that Vera is the killer over and over without proof.

Ah, that was a fun contradiction to write. It really did allow the case to be resolved quite nicely, and in the way a lot of players (like you) would want it to be resolved, by shouting to the heavens "Shut up, Franziska, your case doesn't make any sense and has no evidence!"

One thing would be the Red Envelope: that’s the actual case-breaking evidence, showing that the client (whoever they are) sent the poisoned stamp. Vera would not have been able to reasonably fake that in such a way that Drew would be fooled and (if I remember correctly) it was found at the crime scene by Apollo, Trucy and Ema. Now, Franziska could have argued that Ema was biased in favor of Phoenix (I actually expected her to do that), but seeing as she didn’t, there’s no actual reason for her to refuse this evidence other than “it was the centerpoint of Apollo’s case.” That said, I guess Kristoph could claim that he sent the letter as a part of his plan with Vera. That’s unprovable of course, but so is all of Kristoph’s testimony…

Hm... I hadn't realized that about the Red Envelope. Let's see...

There are two "solutions" to this conundrum that Franziska could bring up during press conversations. Let's see... the first would be accusing Ema of possibly forging the evidence due to bias towards Phoenix Wright, though that's a pretty weighty accusation coming out of nowhere with literally no real evidence to prove the forgery.

The second explanation would be Gavin saying that in actuality he sent Drew Misham two stamps in that envelope: one to actually use to mail a return letter and the other being the pre-poisoned Troupe Gramarye stamp to be his gift to Vera. He says he "gave her the atroquinine" but that could just as easily mean he gave her the "atroquinine that was already on the stamp she asked me to send her." At this point, the line between murderer and accomplice would probably start to get horrendously blurred in this scenario he's positing, but Vera would still be in serious danger. Of course, this makes Gavin's scenario even MORE convoluted... any thoughts on which fix might be more effective?


I guess you put a spoiler warning for 4-4, but I feel like there should be something stronger or at the beginning of the case itself because The Broken Turnabout does not merely spoil 4-4; it literally does not make any sense without a pretty decent knowledge of 4-4. This is not a bad thing, given that the point of Broken is to deconstruct the flaws in that case and with HoboPhoenix’s behavior in general. But while other cases may assume that you’ve played most of the cases before, this one absolutely REQUIRES it. Again, totally justified given the circumstances, but it’s something you can warn people about without giving away exactly what the concept is.
Anyways, short version: I liked it, it does what it’s trying to do and it definitely deserved to win the comp. Also, congrats on the Featuring.

Hm... I see that you're right. RiksKing, after all, played the case despite the spoiler warning since he didn't mind spoilers, though it meant he didn't really get what was going on. I will add that, since that can be added fairly quickly.

Again, thank you so much for playing and for giving your thoughts! They were very helpful. I'm glad that you enjoyed playing through it!
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Calvinball »

@clcman: One thing I forgot to explain in my response:
Spoiler : in your SoC :
You mentioned the fact that Kristoph Gavin's sprites in this game or his badged sprites. I'm afraid I didn't have good filehosting in the initial stages of The Broken Turnabout's creation, so I ended up using his badge sprites. If I can find time (as real life and AAO obligations are keeping me somewhat busy) I may replace them.
The score is still Q to 12. Shirley Homes avatar by my Invisible Friend. They're an awesome artist!
ImageImage

Image

Image
A huge thanks to my Invisible Friend for this AMAZING Shirley Homes art!

Shirley Homes
Image

Connie Harper
Image
A big thanks to gotMLK7 for this Shirley Homes and Connie Harper art. He is an awesome artist!
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