[T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

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clcman
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by clcman »

Don't worry about the response delay. As the guy being reviewed, you are under no obligation to respond at all, let alone within a day or so (I know that it was a lot of text to respond to as well).
Spoiler : :
SoC Response Responses:

Timestamps: Yes, it's always 10 o'clock, barring extreme circumstances like 5-5.
Transcript: Don’t get me wrong, the “promptly flips out” was funny, but it seemed a little unprofessional. Even for Ace Attorney. It could work either way, though tone-wise the phrase would fit better in the newspaper clipping (don't know where, exactly). Not a big deal either way.
Loophole to evade double jeopardy: fair enough. (I had assumed such a justification, but it’s good to be clear.) It’s not like there isn’t already a loophole to get around everything else in the AA rulebook.
The juror's verdict: I’m not sure if there’s a way to cut that sentence down any more, so you might have to split the frame. It’s just not correct grammar (and doesn’t sound right either) without the the. Also, it MUST be [jurors’] with an apostrophe. It is “the verdict belonging to the jurors,” therefore it must be possessive.
Fancase-That-Must-Be-Made: Unfortunately, to my knowledge no one has yet properly chronicled the Zheng Fa serial killer/doughnut thief incident. Which is a shame, because the part when Apollo has to use the elephant as his co-counsel was simultaneously really sweet and really funny. To quote Apollo: “It was a REALLY long day.”
Kristoph's profile: Well, I don’t recall Drew Misham ever appearing so… Broken is in an interesting situation because of its status as a sort of sequel/redo of a canon case. Since it’s important to know who he is, even if he never appeared in person at all it would still make sense for him to have a profile, just because he is, in fact, relevant to the case. Not the biggest deal, though.
The Glitch: I don’t know of any particular way to stop frame-skip glitches. I think it’s just a thing that happens in V6 from time to time. Once I reloaded an earlier save I was able to get past it fine.
Kristoph's badge: Yeah, I can see why you wouldn’t want to go and replace ALL of those Kristoph poses… (Though, actually, the badgeless sprites are in the editor itself as Kristoph poses 13-19. Just so you know. Though half of that IS breakdown, so you might still want some custom sprites just to make sure. Oh, well. It’s not important either way. If anything, Kristoph still wearing his badge is a hint that he’s more delusional than we realized.)
Ema's Testimony: Yeah, splitting the cross-examination sentence in two wouldn’t really help anything. It just feels weird to have that ambiguity there, especially since it’s hard to tell how much the judge actually knows about the previous case.
Gavin and Justice: I guess I can see the Phoenix/Edgeworth parallels, but I guess because “Justice” is an actual word that might come up it still feels weird. Maybe it’s because you’re having two different characters do the same thing for completely opposite reasons: Apollo calls Kristoph “Gavin” because Kristoph is just another criminal/witness. Kristoph calls Apollo “Justice” because… he’s being friendly? To me it just feels like it feels more Kristoph-like (and mocking) to use “Mr. Justice” and Apollo can stick with “Gavin.” But it’s up to you, so whatever.
[Actually, I checked this and in Case 4-1, Kristoph DOES call Apollo “Justice” while they are allies, so your way may be more accurate to canon. It still feels weird to me, but then again, it’s not my trial.]
Cross-examination music: Haven’t tested the sound either, but it wasn’t a big deal in the first place, just a little thing that could be polished up.
The Puzzle: Any day you get to present the Attorney's Badge is a good day. Still, I'd definitely cite this if I ever needed to give an example of good "atypical" puzzle design, which is definitely fitting given that this is an "atypical" case in every sense of the word.

Final Thoughts Response Responses:

I wasn't accusing you of copying The Bitter Turnabout. They are, at their core, very different situations which make for very different cases, even if their fundamental concept of "aftermath" cases remains the same. Which is good, because that's more fun for all of us.

I’d say that Franziska’s actions were worse than Phoenix’s as well. This may not be how you intended it, but part of my interpretation was that Phoenix’s DIDN’T go through all of that nonsense to get revenge on Kristoph; he was just trying to get justice, stop a criminal and also clear his name. Franziska, however, didn’t realize that. She just assumed that he was being motivated by personal vengeance just like she had been in the past because (unlike normal people) that's what her worldview defaults to. Someone screws you over and you try to hurt them back. Her inability to realize that Phoenix WAS trying to do the right thing (albeit in a roundabout and somewhat unethical way) is part of why she herself is willing to play dirty in order to get back at him, because she feels like he’s become the old her.

Godot's basically the only character I can think of who might have had a similar reaction, but he is in no real position to complain about "excessive actions" so Franziska definitely works better. Though now I want to see Apollo and Godot face off for some reason...

As for the Red Envelope, when playing I expected Franziska to start slandering Ema like crazy (since Ema DOES have a potential reason to be biased, the fact that Franziska has no evidence to back up such claims wouldn’t stop her), and it sort of intrigued me that she DIDN’T. Franziska is targeting Phoenix and those she believes to be his “accomplices” (namely Apollo, but probably Athena and Klavier as well). Though Franziska COULD argue that Ema must also be removed, she probably sees Ema as an innocent party and so doesn’t go there. If Apollo takes note of this (just commenting to himself during Ema’s cross-examination that Franziska’s NOT badmouthing a Phoenix associate for once), it could serve as foreshadowing that even as hostile as Franziska is, she still has limits because she still thinks she’s doing the right thing.

The most logical place for Apollo to bring up the Red Envelope would be during Kristoph’s testimony (since Franziska is not disputing the actual facts of the murder up until then), as it was the evidence linking him to the crime (okay, so the Yellow-Envelope-That-We-Don’t-Have-Anymore was the thing linking Kristoph to the Red Envelope which linked him to the crime, but whatever). Franziska would probably try to shut him down, but Apollo would insist that this found-at-the-crime-scene evidence IS relevant, which Franziska can’t deny without damaging Ema’s credibility (which she previously had no problem with). This doesn’t necessarily mean that the Envelope actually gets into the record, though, just that Kristoph must address the issue. Kristoph’s best bet is to (for once in his life) tell the truth: He put the stamp in the envelope and sent the letter but Vera took the stamp out and insisted that she be allowed to keep it, thus preventing Drew from using the stamp until “fate” made him do it. Thus, Kristoph has “proven” Vera’s involvement. Can he verify this is the case? No. Is claiming that Vera did this ridiculous? Yes. But that’s the point of Kristoph's story: it’s a massive ball of nonsense disguised as an alternate theory. Ironically, Kristoph’s story sounds like a (normal) defense attorney’s claim: I can’t prove this happened, but you can’t disprove that it’s a valid-ish alternative theory. Only problem is, Kristoph’s not on the defense’s side this time: He’s on the prosecution’s, so Innocent Until Proven Guilty screws HIM over instead. Like I think some other people mentioned, I'm sort of sad that we don't get to see Kristoph's reaction to learning that Apollo and Phoenix have defeated him once again, but I can't think of a way to do that that makes sense.

Okay, I think that's everything. Good job, and good luck in future endeavors. (Like a certain comp that's being run right now...)
Last edited by clcman on Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : @clcman :
Thank you very much for the re-response! It was very helpful. I don't really have any more questions besides wanting to say sorry if I sounded like I was accusing you of accusing me of copying The Bitter Turnabout! I didn't mean for what I said in my response to sound like that! ^~^

Aside from that, I'll just get to the polishes you suggested. Splitting a few frames to maintain grammar, changing where Kristoph's profile shows up, and having Apollo bring up the red envelope in cross-examination somehow (I'll have to be careful in doing so, since I don't want to throw off the cross-examination as it stands already...) among other fixes. I should have time to do that tomorrow (since I've already got real life and other AAO plans today) and they're small changes, so I think it's safe to leave the link up in the meantime.

Once again, thank you very much, clcman!

Oh, and speaking of that competition, isn't it great? I mean, those two people running it are doing a swell job, if I do say so myself. (XD)
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Calvinball »

By way of announcement, there have been a few relatively major updates to The Broken Turnabout. The first is that, thanks to Enthalpy and a program of his creation, all the word-wrapping issues in the case have been fixed! In other words, assuming everything worked (it did) and I fixed any of the mistakes made by the program (I might've missed a few, so please report them here if you see anything) when the text types out, words will not "jump" from one line to next. Hurrah!
Spoiler : The next update involves minor spoilers :
The second is that the news clipping now reads more like an actual article rather than four, disconnected almost-paragraphs. The information important to the final puzzle is still in its own paragraph, though, so it shouldn't be any more difficult to find than it was before.
That's all for now, but stay tuned, as there very well may be the teeniest bit more within the next week!
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : One last update! (major spoilers for "The Broken Turnabout" and case 4-4 inside) :
The biggest problem that clcman discovered was that in creating the case I completely forgot about a certain detail about the red envelope: namely, that the atroquinine stain on it basically completely exonerates Vera Misham, since it more or less proves that a client sent the stamp. Kristoph's testimony and cross-examination now have one additional statement and press conversation that I believe addresses the problem. It contains more crazy nonsense from Kristoph, so this new element to his story makes about as much sense as the rest of it. But that is as it should be!

That's all for today! Thanks again to clcman for noticing the issue!
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Fantasyhunt »

I played the case not too long ago and I believe it was a great case! It was quite a treat to see Apollo and Athena face off against Franziska while all the characters stayed in character. Sometimes things didn't make sense (though I don't blame you for that), but calvinball, you did a good job in my opinion!

Keep up the good work! I hope to play another one of your cases soon!
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by drvonkitty »

Just got around to playing this, and I must say, it was very excellent! Definitely deserving of its competition victory and featured status. I won't leave any remarks because honestly, there isn't anything major that comes to mind in terms of criticism - good choice of characters, great plot, satisfying resolution, and an excellent capture of the AA feel - keeping the light-heartedness while still dealing with serious subject matter. Definitely one of the best trials I've played on AAO, so kudos to you! :D
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by TheDoctor »

Just played this earlier today, and I have to commend you for this one. This trial is not particularly difficult, but it is very well written and an excellent use of existing continuity.
Spoiler : :
I also love how you trolled us early on with the evidence in the court lobby. Well played.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Calvinball »

@drvonkitty and The Doctor: Thank you both so much for the kind words! I worked hard on it, but it was a lot of fun to do, and I'm glad you enjoyed it as well. After playing so many cases made by others on AAO, I'm glad I could contribute to the community too.
Spoiler : @The Doctor (Spoilers!) :
Ah, now that was something I'd been wanting to do for a long time, and it was fun to plan out. Glad you liked it!
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Silver_Owl »

This was the first game I played on AAO (I'm fairly new here, now playing my fifth case), and gosh I loved it! It gave me such high expectations of what the other fan cases will look like.
Spoiler : Spoiler Tag :
First of all, let me say I loved how you used Franziska. I was a little worried at first, but then I realized... She's right, you know. Even if her motives were questionable, she had very good points. Her comment about Congress was perfection.

I like how Athena was also included, though it took me a bit to get used to her in 2D. She still has helpful things to say despite not being able to do what she's known for.

Oh, and I liked your development on the judge. Judges don't normally get development, so you won so many points for that in my book.

Another thing I loved was (does this need to go in spoilers? I'll edit if it does.) how you don't have to prove the real killer to get your client acquitted. I feel like that should get addressed in the real game at some point, because it feels stupid when you've proven, beyond a doubt, your client couldn't have done it. But the trial isn't over, because now we have to the prosecution's job with the witness.

All in all, I loved what you did with the case. Your explanations easily work within canon, you made the canon world seem more realistic, and the end in Vitamin Park (Square? I forgot already) was perfect. I like how the two of them bonded, and both were so in character it was awesome.
Please create more cases! If you want my help (even though I discovered this place a few days ago and know nothing about it), I'm happy to give it.
Last edited by Enthalpy on Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Adding a spoiler tag.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Enthalpy »

In future, please enclose details about a case in spoiler tags. You can talk about very general thing freely, e.g., that Franziska and Athena are in the game, but things like what the final present is and Franziska's role in the role do need to be spoilered.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Silver_Owl »

Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't know what the rules were on spoilers. Thanks for fixing it.
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Lind »

Spoiler : Knock your SoCs off :
Whelp, the premise has me hooked in already.

I like the writing here. Athena and Apollo's conversation in the lobby came off as very organic.

Oh snap it's the Canehdian judge

OH SNAP IT'S FRANZISKA

OH SNAP! I DO NOT HEAR SUCH A TRUTH?

Well, there goes the evidence. Way to raise the stakes. I hope the Evidence Law stuff from Rise From the Ashes will play into this, that'd be neat... like, finding a way to make the old evidence relevant and eligible again through previously unknown information.

Hehe, Lemonsnout.

...Did Ema ever actually meet Franziska at any point?

Oh right, The Forgotten Turnabout.

For the record, if you put a frame of a character at their bench, give it smooth scrolling and a wait time of 700ms, and then have them start talking in a separate frame afterwards, then they won't talk over the scrolling. It looks much more professional and is truer to the actual games. True story.

The whip popups seem to have stopped appearing for whatever reason.

"I pity the attorney"? I suspect she had to suppress a "fool" there.

Whip pop-ups are back.

"Sister, you had me at science." Absolute gold.

B-B-B-BRUSHEL?!

and calling and calling and calling and calling and calling

Why the pin?

GODDAMN IT FRANZISKA YOU ARE NOT TAKING AWAY OUR SUPERPOWERS

YOU CAN TAKE MY PSEUDOSCIENTIFIC BULLCRAP WHEN YOU PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS

god damn it apollo calm down

BIG. DAMN. HEROES.

Ain't we just.

"For some reason, though, he's dressed as a hobo now?"

nice touch on the court record there

"Don't talk to me as if we're equals."
"Fine, fine. In that case, do you want me to talk down to you?"
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The bloody Ace of Spades? ...OH FRICK THIS ISN'T GOOD

Oh hey custom music

This sounds familiar. Where is this from? Is this a remix?

Oh damn. Franzy laid down the law.

that

that was it

that was the freaking testimony

THAT WAS THE ENTIRE THING

NO. I'M F***IN' DONE. I'M F***IN' DONE! THIS IS BULLS***! JUST F****ING BULLS***!

WHAT IS THIIIIIIIIIIS!?

WHAT IS THIIIIIIIIIIS!?

WHAT IS MY LIFE!?

I CAN'T DO IT, JOHN! I CAN'T F***IN' DO IT! LOOK WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH, MAN!

YOU'VE GOTTA DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE! YOU'VE GOTTA DRAW THE F***IN' LINE IN THE SAND, DUDE!

YOU'VE GOTTA MAKE A STATEMENT. YOU'VE GOTTA LOOK INSIDE OF YOURSELF AND SAY, "WHAT AM I WILLING TO PUT UP WITH TODAY"?

NOT F***ING THIS!

...Beautiful little moment we just had.

Ah, yes. The Macarena. The most horrendous of all murder methods.

Oh hey another remix

Ah, yes, Athena. You helped.
...
I actually completely forgot she was there for a very long time.

That final objection was really nice bit of callback humour.

The locket is a nice touch.

oh would you two just make out already

Oh hey my Edgeworth sprites

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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by 123fendas »

Wow, I'm amazed your first trial isn't criticized that much.

Now that I've finished AJ, I'll play this for real! It seems to be a remake of Turnabout Succession, though... Hmm...
((I've played this before, but when I was extremely new to Ace Attorney, so I didn't get anything. But when I played Turnabout Succession, some things felt familiar. Yeah, because I had played a remake of it. Anyway.))
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by Calvinball »

@Fantasyhunt: Ack, sorry for missing your comment earlier! I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the case, and I do hope to make another fan case. I am entered in a competition. (urgh, I gotta work on that....)

@Silver_Owl: Thanks for the kind words! I like exploring canon, and my favorite kinds of fan works tend to be ones that flesh out and expand on what's already there. Not to knock AUs, though - they're still awesome. Just for me, I like to make things work in canon. Call me unoriginal, I suppose, hahah!
Spoiler : @Lind :
Hahahah! Well, that was one of the funniest SoCs I've ever seen. I'm glad to hear you thought that trick with the evidence raised the stakes, and I can't help but feel really pleased with the reaction Phoenix's testimony got out of you. He's quite the joker!

And by the way, your Dual Destinies Edgeworth sprites are really good.
@123fendas: Yes, it does kind of make a lot more sense with knowledge of 4-4. I hope you enjoy it more on your second playthrough!
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Re: [T][CE] The Broken Turnabout ★

Post by WhiteZekrom »

Spoiler : Spoilers :
I would like to say that this is one of my favorite trials. The premise of having a retrial of State Vs. Vera Misham would have never passed through my mind, specially how Kristoph dragged the process in the Court of Appeals and went to the State and National Congresses to nullify the Jurist System. I also liked how Phoenix and Franziska, in the end, turned into what they criticized of Gavin: of utilizing the courts to enact their revenges.
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