Design Discussion (1/2017): Lawnmower Investigations

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Ferdielance
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Re: Design Discussion (1/2017): Lawnmower Investigations

Post by Ferdielance »

Enthalpy wrote:
Gamer2002 wrote:But like there is a difference between good cross-examination and bad one, there is a difference between good investigation and a bad one. We have tutorials for the former, is there any for the latter?
Yes, actually.
I should update that. I should update that using information from this discussion.
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Re: Design Discussion (1/2017): Lawnmower Investigations

Post by kwando1313 »

Enthalpy wrote:
kwando1313 wrote:But yeah, unfortunately this is a big issue in pretty much AA game. Most investigations are just go pixel hunting and find the missing object. IMO, 1-5 is the biggest offender for this (and one of the big reasons I really don't like it as a case), since there are many many pixel hunts from what I remember of the case. Another example I can think of is 1-4, where you're (really obviously and stupidly) forced to present the DL-6 file to Manfred von Karma, and then he tazes you. Which is a really dumb thing to do, but is needed by the plot.
Can you explain how the DL-6 file ties in to the rest? (I'm not sure about your "moved beyond that point" argument, but I'll save that until I understand you on this point.) I think you're equating lawnmower with "chokepoints that aren't what the player will naturally do," but I want to make sure.
Nah, that's just me being a silly and putting in two non-related points. :P
Enthalpy wrote:
kwando1313 wrote:[L]inearizing investigations is not a good or well-thought out solution either, since it eliminates the sense of control from the player. Instead of having an investigation, you're getting at best an interactive cutscene where you point out and click on various different things in order to make sure you're going to proceed in the scene.
But is there a real sense of control in the lawnmower model, where you also "point out and click on various different things in order to make sure you're going to proceed in the scene"?
I would say there is, since at least you have various options to do things. I mean, sure, it's not very much control, but it's still more control than having no optional content and just being forced to do things in an exact order.
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Re: Design Discussion (1/2017): Lawnmower Investigations

Post by Kroki »

Good idea! Want me to add it to the list on the Open Source project?
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Any extra/custom button on the screen would be super useful for creating Magatama/Logic-like mechanisms.
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Re: Design Discussion (1/2017): Lawnmower Investigations

Post by Reecer6 »

Enthalpy wrote:
Gamer2002 wrote:AA's problem with investigations isn't in its basic design, which is fine for its purpose. The problem is that they contrast the fast paced trials with tedious busywork.
Would tedious busywork be fine without this contrast?
I mean, I think it's fair to say that gameplay characterized entirely by being tedious is never really good, regardless of what components are put in conjunction with it. And if Ace Attorney were released without the court sessions, and was 100% just investigation segments, I would say there'd be no real point in playing it. But that's not because it's tedious—it's because it's the build-up, whereas court is the pay-off.

The really obvious, hardly-needs-to-be-said difference between investigations in an Ace Attorney game and in a Lawn Attorney game is that, an Ace Attorney... you actually talk, and have meaningful discussion! That's super trivial, but it's a huge reason why investigations aren't tedious (At least, if you have any interest whatsoever in the plot, and if you don't, you'd probably find reading a book tedious as well). Mowing grass isn't rewarded by giving you more grass to mow, or a person to click buttons at; it gives you a fun piece of dialogue with maybe a joke, as well as one or two tiny facets of the grander mystery that you can stew in your mind and wonder at. This is the exact way tedium is properly prevented: a reward.

Of course, we know investigations aren't totally necessary to the Ace Attorney system, as a corollary to Enthalpy's question. You could conceivably have a 5-case game that was all one-day trials. That could still tell a fulfilling mystery. But with suspenseful final cases, where all the stakes are meant to be raised, vile killers lurking just around the corner to be caught, being dropped straight into court and just being exposited on what happened wouldn't give you the same sense of determination, because you immediately have to start confronting witnesses whose falsehoods you've hardly been given the chance to build up a resentment towards. As well, the lack of an investigation gives the case a level of abstraction, that it's not a physical event that happened but simply a collection of evidence and memories, which could drastically alter the extent to which you actually care about finding the truth. So, investigation segments are still an important part of Ace Attorney, and...

...Hmmm, that last paragraph was a bit of a digression. The two paragraphs before that still matter.
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Re: Design Discussion (1/2017): Lawnmower Investigations

Post by Gamer2002 »

Would tedious busywork be fine without this contrast?
No, but what I mean is that investigations seem especially tedious in comparison to the trials. When my friend played AA he told me that during investigations he couldn't wait for the next trial segment and theorized that the game would be much better without any investigations. I don't think that game's creators wanted players to wish that one of two game's section was gone, so there are some problems here. One of them is, IMO, too big contrast between the two sections.
...the causes of the two are different, which means the remedies are entirely different.
What causes? In the quote above I'm talking about personal reactions to problems caused by poor design. People can react differently to the same thing.
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Re: Design Discussion (1/2017): Lawnmower Investigations

Post by Reecer6 »

Gamer2002 wrote:When my friend played AA he told me that during investigations he couldn't wait for the next trial segment and theorized that the game would be much better without any investigations.
...Well then, consider that stance... argued against. Clearly I have discussion precognition.
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Re: Design Discussion (1/2017): Lawnmower Investigations

Post by Bad Player »

Gamer2002 wrote:
...the causes of the two are different, which means the remedies are entirely different.
What causes? In the quote above I'm talking about personal reactions to problems caused by poor design. People can react differently to the same thing.
You seem to be assuming that "bad design" is fungible/uniform and "bad design" simply causes players to feel negatively, and that there aren't different types or styles of bad design that can cause people to generally react differently.
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