[T] Age of Turnabouts ☆

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Arivenzys
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Arivenzys »

Spoiler : :
That seems to be a translation discrepancy : considering the map, it's supposed to be the "First floor's meeting space". It should be corrected now, sorry for that !
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Arivenzys »

Bumping again for Enthalpy :)
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Enthalpy
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Enthalpy »

Thanks. Last weekend was crazy, but I should have time not just on the weekends now, so things should move faster.
Spoiler : :
* About Suntome's first testimony: Why couldn't Xavier have been the climber? He didn't have an alibi at the time of the crime, so maybe he found a way to go back down to the ground floor before the police arrived.

* During cross-examination 3, the press conversation of statement 3a, Suntome says:
So he first went downstairs to
reach the toilets on the ground
floor.


In English, this means that he was not downstairs but moved downstairs. Is that what you meant? I thought that the witness started on the ground floor and then went up.

* Leviath just announced that the cloth was likely a gag, and I need to point to a problem in his statements When reviewing the Court Record, I was confused by the description of the hook:

The police discovered this hook coming from the kitchens in the toilets of the first floor.

I strongly suspect there is a translation error here.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Arivenzys
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Arivenzys »

It's alright, better late than never ^^
Spoiler : :
*About Xavier : Actually, Suntome declared seeing someone climb just after the gunshot, yet never saw Andrew use the stairs. So either she's lying or she's telling the truth, but the only motive for lying would be if she was herself the culprit. So maybe Xavier could have climbed then went down, but Andrew still was upstairs, so I believe that point would be moot. However, I could actually add a specific result for indicating Xavier considering that reflexion.

* Cross-examination : Yes, it was supposed to mean that he moved downstairs : the witness and the victim started talking on the First's floor meeting space. However, the problem may come from the confusion about the "first floor" : I know there is a difference between floors in english, as the "ground floor" is sometimes also the "first floor". In this trial, the "first floor" is upstairs. If you have a better way for me to explain it, I would gladly take it.

*The hook : Well, I wanted to say that the hook came from the kitchens, but was discovered in the toilets. Is "The police discovered in the toilets of the first floor this hook coming from the kitchens" a better translation ?
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Enthalpy
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Enthalpy »

Spoiler : :
Why would the kitchen have a hook, anyways? To me, that looked like a fishing hook.

I can better translate the sentence when I know that.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Arivenzys »

Spoiler : :
Well, it's supposed to be a meat hook in fact ^^
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Enthalpy »

Spoiler : :
Might I suggest:

One of the kitchen's meat hooks. The police discovered it in one of the toilets on the first floor.

The information about the burnt string is fine.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Arivenzys
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Arivenzys »

Spoiler : :
It's fine by me, I'll change it.

And about the two other issues you pointed, are they good enough?
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Enthalpy »

Yes, I'm satisfied.

I finished the case today! I'll post my thoughts in more detail this weekend.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Enthalpy
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Enthalpy »

Spoiler : THE MUCH BELATED REVIEW :
First off, thank you to Arivenyzys for reminding me to finish this game. At the end of June, I began as a graduate student. Ever since then, it has been difficult for me to find time for AAO. Thanks to him for keeping me focused. This entire incident has motivated me to rethink my schedule.

My perceptions of the case are influenced by the mistranslations in the game's dialogue. Translating a case from one language to another is difficult, and I commend Arivenyzys for how readable his translation is. However, it is just unreadable enough that the case has a strange, unnatural feel to it. For example, whenever Leviath said he wanted "a theoretical development," I could understand the questions that were asked afterwards, but it was as if there was a fog in my mind whenever they started. After I finished the game, I realized why. The natural English would have been for Leviath to say he wanted "theory development." This is a small change, but it changed how I thought about the minigame. What Leviath did was was not arcane and technical; he just wanted a coherent theory from the defense! In hindsight, this translation makes perfect sense. The English "theory development" contains a noun adjunct, which does not exist in French grammar.

These problems occurred throughout the case. It was harder to take the dialogue when we accused Andrew seriously after Leviath said, "Me the same." What is the verb in that sentence? This English needs enough fixes that I think the case could benefit from a native English speaker editing it. Normally, I would volunteer to do it, but I have another project I need to finish first, and I do not want to risk delaying that any longer. I hope to have that done by Christmas. If I have my schedule clear, and you still need a translator, I'll post here to let you know I can do it.

I still enjoyed what I played, very much!

The story handled "the Dark Age of the Law" better than Dual Destinies. This case had two very good ideas that I wish the canon game had:
1. We were given a reason to care about the lack of trust caused by the Dark Age of the Law. The evidence forgery at Themis seemed like the result of Prof. Means being crazy, not a lack of trust. The story of the Liarons turning to murder gives us a very good reason to care.
2. Leviath's character created some much needed nuance. Even those who are trying to fight against the Dark Age can create entirely new problems by... not trusting others to help them fix it, perpetuating the Dark Age they were trying to stop. Leviath filled this role excellently.

I liked the characters, for the most part. Phoenix was in-character, the judge was humorous as ever, and I already mentioned Leviath. Andrine was a different kind of detective, but he worked well, and the reaction he got out of the others made the other characters feel "more real." My primary complaint is that the case would benefit from using this to make Andrew more sympathetic, since he is our defendant. I can give a more specific recommendation here, and about the other characters, after the grammar is cleaned up. Looking over the dialogue again, I see several things that I overlooked the first time because I was so fixated on grammar.

As for the case logic, before I talk about that, I should figure out how much you know. Are you aware that Takumi and Yamazaki write case logic very differently? I talk about that in great detail here. Skim it and let me know if this is familiar to you.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Arivenzys
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Arivenzys »

Spoiler : :
Well, thanks to you Enthalpy for playing through all the case especially with your difficulties. I was hoping I was not too insisting on that (I can't recall the number of bumps I made ^^), and so it's at least a good thing that you enjoyed the case.

About the english, well, I did my best but as non-native english speaker, I could not make a perfect translation, so I'll make a request soon enough for a complete check. Thank you for the first few things you pointed out by the way.

About the case logic, I read your post about it and it's very interesting. I did not searched the difference between the two flows, nor I tried to use one particularly. I can give you a global explanation of how I thought about that case (but as it's two-years old, I may have forgotten some things...).

First, it was during the contest of the Bright Age of the Law, during which there was also a character contest. I created Leviath for both of them, as I wanted a character who wanted to take everything on his shoulder, trying to fight the Dark Age alone. So I settled on someone with a strong morality but also much pride : as such, he would not be an opponent trying to bring down the defense by all means. So the opposition needed to come from somewhere else.

Then I thought about the Dark Age itself : during Dual Destinies, what we saw about that dark age was essentially the justice's side. So I wanted to make some mundane people affected by those events : a killer set free because of the manipulation of an amoral attorney, and a family trying to take revenge on him. I had pretty much the point of the second trial. However, I felt like it needed an introduction for most of the characters : that gave me the opportunity to unravel the persona of Leviath and Andrew, as well as presenting Silipee and his strangeness before his death. I had some ideas for a stand alone case before the contest, involing someone getting thrown out a window : it gave me the murder of the first case. I then worked a motive, what brought Silipee at that place and the rest came more or less naturally.

This is for the story. The logic of the gameplay came after that, and sometimes during the writing of the case.

For the first murder, I used the bases I had, and created all of the elements used during the murder (the tablecloth, the scissors, the lock and the map) and I tried to find all the points who could be used by the defense to progress. When I found a contradiction that could not be resolved by a handwave, I added something to make it work : the best example is probably the walkman, which was added to explain why Silipee did not heard any ruckus. Once I had the most of the useful evidences, I worked on the testimonies.
When I created them, I kept in mind that Leviath had a problem with the initial theory but didn't found something that could satisfy his doubt. Then I had the idea of the theory development (as you said ^^) : to advance his own theories, Leviath asks Phoenix about what HE thinks about that case, without a need for evidence at first. The goal was triple : make the story progress without a cross-examination or absolute evidence, use a new gameplay (I really like in general a little mechanic for a breath of fresh air) and finally verify what the player understood about the case. Leviath's character offered the possibility of such a mechanic, as he's motivated by the truth more than a win. However, as he was put in the prosecution's place against his will for the first case, he was a little more unwilling to help the defense.
Finally, the twist I wanted to incorporate was that the "last witness" to take the stand was not the true culprit : so I made Tiara appear early, and the trial first followed a wrong way toward Andrew. When Phoenix finally goes back on track and try to incriminate Tiara, the opposition Leviath could represent switch to her. And when she's defeated, there are still some loose ends that are supposed to appear in the next part.

The second murder was harder to create : I had to start from scratch, and the deadline for the contest was approaching. I don't really remember why I chose that crime scene in particular, and I recall trying to make a crime scene's photo, but I did not had the time so I had to find other ways to circumvent this. That said, I knew how I wanted to make the case happen : the case was suspicious and foggy enough to make both Phoenix and Leviath want to investigate the matter in court. Leviath is way more sure of his stand than before, yet he knows that Phoenix is not an amoral attorney. He has less holes in his initial theory because he's partly right, and yet I had to make another truth to discover : Leviath doesn't have all the cards in hand, and as the trial progress, some discrepancy appear for him : that's why he works more with Phoenix for the final part, when Xavier takes the stand.
The last theory development was not incorporated in the contest's version because I did not had the time to finish properly. I included it after as people told me the end seemed a bit bland.

So globally, I'm note sure if that style of writing is good, or if I tend toward a specific flow or another, but I try to have consistency in general, as loose ends often feel a little annoying for me (both as a player and as an author). I would gladly talk more about it or listen to some advices if you want !
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Enthalpy
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Enthalpy »

That's good to know, thanks!

Have you had any luck in finding a editor? It looks like that other project I mentioned will be done by New Years', so I'll be glad to volunteer to edit the English, if you still need somebody to do it by then. As I think about it, my logic notes will change a lot after the editing, so I'll just wait for post-edit to talk about that.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Arivenzys »

I made a request in the dedicated topic, but I received only one answer for now, and that person did not went back on the forum since I send a reply, so I have no news for now. But as it's the end of the year, it's not surprising that people are not much available.

If there is no changes before then, I would gladly take your help.
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by Enthalpy »

Any luck? If not, send me a PM, and we can coordinate the specifics of the editing.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T] Age of Turnabouts ●●●●

Post by omroom »

Hey, Arivenzys.

Reporting a bug when I tried to play through this case:
Spoiler : :
Both the Office Plan and Lilie's Plan are broken images, making it impossible to get through Part 2.
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