[T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

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jayvdale
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by jayvdale »

DWaM wrote:@Red Right:
Thank you very much for the kind words. (Don't worry, everyone used the walkthrough at one point. Whether they wanted to or not.)

@jayvdale:
Erm... I...

Thank you? I think? I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you tried saying there.
Spoiler : :
Ah! I was just said in the true ending when I click Masterson's Profile before I go back to false ending that Cross turning into the real E. I can't even break Cross' testimony.
Edited for spoiler, and your game is excellent and I like it.
Last edited by jayvdale on Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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DWaM
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by DWaM »

Might want to put that in spoilers.

Also,
Spoiler : :
It says in the walkthrough. Just fail. Drain all your life.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by PWfan666 »

The storyline+music of this game are more than worthy of the Phoenix Wright game serie's name. Hats down for you, and you have my most sincere thanks for that gaming experience you offered me. I had a wonderful time following that story.

However, the game itself is very difficult, and I found it most impossible to finish on my own deduction skills with the lack of in game clues I was pointed out through the evidences' list (no pointers to Eisenhower testimonies, etc). Sadly, I had to rely on testing-all-the-combinations trick in certain situations to finish the game.

A tiny little disappointment :
Spoiler : :
I wish you made a way to beat Cross/E at the end, so that there would be an evil-always-gets-punished kind of game ending cliché.
I have a question that doesn't seem to be answered at the end :
Spoiler : :
why did Masterson not die after Yalt's shot through the ceiling? I thought Cross/E's plan was proceeding as expected and so, Masterson should have died, right? At the end, Masterson said he did "that" (written in red), so I thought he would tell what he actually did to avoid being killed, but he didn't. Please, help me out putting the last piece of this fantastic puzzling game in its rightful place!
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by DWaM »

Thank you very much for the praise! The difficulty was always intended, I assure you (even though I do admit some parts were over-the-top).
Spoiler : Disappointment :
And it's exactly because you stated it as a 'cliche' that I saw it fit to avoid it (well, it was part of the reason, anyway). Plus, I'd say Cross got punished in the end.
Spoiler : Your question :
Ah, but the question was answered. ...Granted, it's hidden (but not optional or skippable!), and while it doesn't say 'this is what happened, 100%' it does give you a general idea of what Masterson did.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by Bad Player »

DWaM wrote:
Spoiler : Disappointment :
And it's exactly because you stated it as a 'cliche' that I saw it fit to avoid it (well, it was part of the reason, anyway). Plus, I'd say Cross got punished in the end.
You haven't added in the alternate end I suggested? You have disappointed me, as usual, DWaM.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by PWfan666 »

DWaM wrote:Thank you very much for the praise! The difficulty was always intended, I assure you (even though I do admit some parts were over-the-top).
Spoiler : Disappointment :
And it's exactly because you stated it as a 'cliche' that I saw it fit to avoid it (well, it was part of the reason, anyway). Plus, I'd say Cross got punished in the end.
Spoiler : Your question :
Ah, but the question was answered. ...Granted, it's hidden (but not optional or skippable!), and while it doesn't say 'this is what happened, 100%' it does give you a general idea of what Masterson did.
Thanks for the answer. Well, it kind of annoys me to have to replay the part 3 to understand that missing part, so can you tell me what Masterson did say about this matter and/or when in part 3? I remembered he said he had his suspicions, but I don't remember seeing anything about it.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by DWaM »

It's really not something to be too worried about. As I said - it never specifically states the specific course of action taken, just the implication of what happened (and it can be interpreted in different ways - perhaps this person didn't actually need to do anything for this particular event to happen, etc., etc.). As to where it is... Kind of in plain sight, again.
Spoiler : Location :
It's in the flashback Cross has to that night. 8 =/= 9.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by TheDoctor »

A bit of a critique, now that I've finished the case...
Spoiler : My Thoughts :
First off, I want to say kudos on an extremely well written story. If this were a book, I would have nothing but high praise for it. Also, the imagery was nicely done as well. I especially love how you managed to make use of the courtroom blur effect (Any chance of you making a tutorial on how to do that?).

That said, there are a few points where I take issue with the gameplay itself. While several points are really good (Wright's testimony was one of my favorites), there are a couple of problems...

1: There are many times when the evidence only connects to the testimony by the vaguest of threads. I don't have any problem trying to remember details from previous testimonies(although, I will talk about that in a moment), but there are times when the evidence just does not seem to connect at all (Seriously, if I'm scratching my head wondering how the evidence connects, even after it's explained, there's a problem).

2: One major proponent of writing an Ace Attorney case is remembering that players are forgetful. There are way too many contradictions that require the player to have an immaculate memory. Even the players that do have good memories can be completely screwed over if they save their game and don't come back to it until the next day.

3: Knowing how to find Masterson's alias requires an existing knowledge of Edgar Allan Poe's works, the ability to remember the name "Auguste Dupin" off the top of one's head, and the ability to make the connection. If the fake name had something to do with chess perhaps, like Bishop Knightly or something, it might be a little easier, but I digress. In any case, I knew about Dupin, but it's been so long since I read that story that I didn't even remember his name, so I was looking for an anagram of Philip Masterson, or something to that effect. On the plus side, it is located towards the beginning of the list, so brute forcing it wouldn't take too long, but still...

4: The super-objection. Not only do we have to find an unknown amount of evidence (which as I stated before, is only vaguely connected at best), but we also have to press specific statements before it will even work? Do you realize just how many variables we have to brute force our way though if we ended up having to go that route? (At least it wasn't a supra-objection, I'll give you that). It is for this specific reason that I'm glad you at least included a walkthough.

5: Forcing the player to lose the game in the true ending rebuttal is just bad design. Especially since most people are likely to reload once they've lost their health. Perhaps if you had made it "press all to continue" or something similar in addition to making it "lose health to continue," I could see it (or better yet, just put the ending on autopilot).

That's all for my critique, but I do have one question about the ending. Cross said Dawns was supposedly planning his murder, but the way you have it here, it almost looks like she's committing suicide. Is she killing herself, or is it part of some plan to get to Cross? I'm confused.
EDIT: I forgot to mention the music choices were quite good. Particularly the one from Sherlock Holmes.
Last edited by TheDoctor on Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by Sligneris »

DWaM wrote:*grumble* *grumble* Making me go load an old trial... *grumble*

Alright, he's the custom music list:
Spoiler : :
Prologue/The True culprit's reveal - Sherlock Holmes: A Game Of Shadows - 14 The Red Book
Logic theme (aka, the theme where we found out he escape from the asylum) - Umineko no naku koro ni - 7 weights
Trial Theme - Umineko no naku koro ni - Reflection-call
Cross' Objection Theme - Umineko no naku koro ni - Endless nine
Part 1 - Cross Questions Eileen's logic - G-Senjou no Maou - Shiyuu
Part 2 - Cross points out the differences in the witness accounts (the pistol issue)/Masterson Objects - UN-GO - Light
Part 2 - Exposing the killer - Umineko no naku koro ni - Ruriair
Part 3 - Masterson's First and Second Testimonies - Umineko no naku koro ni - Discolor
Part 3 - Masterson shows the tape recorder - Umineko no naku koro ni - Prison Strip/Rengokou, I believe it's also called?
Part 3 - "It's all over" - Umineko no naku koro ni - system0
Part 3 - Cross' Last Stand (Masterson's Last Testimony) - G-Senjou no Maou - Road to Glory
Part 3 - Cross shows "the truth" - Umineko no naku koro ni - dreamenddischarger
Part 3 - Final nail in the coffin (Cross explain's the tape recording)/Cross vs. EVERYONE - G-Senjou no Maou - Kecchaku
Part 3 - Masterson's Motive.../Epilogue - G-Senjou no Maou - Michi wa Hyouga Nari

Do note that the titles for the "G-Senjou no Maou" songs aren't necessarily correct, because I was mainly using the titles it was under when I got it off YouTube... :P
Could you provide links as well?

Also, that trial name... looks familiar :P

(I know that this fangame was made before DD)
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by DWaM »

TheDoctor wrote:A bit of a critique, now that I've finished the case...
Spoiler : My Thoughts :
First off, I want to say kudos on an extremely well written story. If this were a book, I would have nothing but high praise for it. Also, the imagery was nicely done as well. I especially love how you managed to make use of the courtroom blur effect (Any chance of you making a tutorial on how to do that?).
Well, I'm glad you liked it! As for the courtroom blur effect, it's a graphic that was ripped by... Thursday, I think? It should be somewhere in his art thread, I believe.

That said, there are a few points where I take issue with the gameplay itself. While several points are really good (Wright's testimony was one of my favorites), there are a couple of problems...

1: There are many times when the evidence only connects to the testimony by the vaguest of threads. I don't have any problem trying to remember details from previous testimonies(although, I will talk about that in a moment), but there are times when the evidence just does not seem to connect at all (Seriously, if I'm scratching my head wondering how the evidence connects, even after it's explained, there's a problem).

2: One major proponent of writing an Ace Attorney case is remembering that players are forgetful. There are way too many contradictions that require the player to have an immaculate memory. Even the players that do have good memories can be completely screwed over if they save their game and don't come back to it until the next day.

3: Knowing how to find Masterson's alias requires an existing knowledge of Edgar Allan Poe's works, the ability to remember the name "Auguste Dupin" off the top of one's head, and the ability to make the connection. If the fake name had something to do with chess perhaps, like Bishop Knightly or something, it might be a little easier, but I digress. In any case, I knew about Dupin, but it's been so long since I read that story that I didn't even remember his name, so I was looking for an anagram of Philip Masterson, or something to that effect. On the plus side, it is located towards the beginning of the list, so brute forcing it wouldn't take too long, but still...

4: The super-objection. Not only do we have to find an unknown amount of evidence (which as I stated before, is only vaguely connected at best), but we also have to press specific statements before it will even work? Do you realize just how many variables we have to brute force our way though if we ended up having to go that route? (At least it wasn't a supra-objection, I'll give you that). It is for this specific reason that I'm glad you at least included a walkthough.

Well, I can't exactly deny any of these. I originally made this during one of my 'earlier' days where I was only focused on the story and really didn't pay much attention to the player's side of the gameplay. While I did try to tone down things on some of the areas, I suppose it didn't do much -- unfortunately, I still really can't do much more, considering that most of it is tied to the way the story progresses and/or would, on the other hand, make things too obvious/make certain scenes pointless/not be able to transition properly/look out of place.
For certain pieces of evidence, that could potentially be because I put alternatives to certain pieces of evidence, which, while shaky, still *somehow* connect to the subject at hand, to make it at least a bit more... specific, I suppose - especially if certain questions are phrased in a way that the player would think to present something else.

Still - I will look for ways to make the case easier/add additional hints to certain presents... when and if I find the time. :P


5: Forcing the player to lose the game in the true ending rebuttal is just bad design. Especially since most people are likely to reload once they've lost their health. Perhaps if you had made it "press all to continue" or something similar in addition to making it "lose health to continue," I could see it (or better yet, just put the ending on autopilot).

I sort of thought it worked well, all things considered. If memory serves, Cross tells you several times to give up/tells you you will lose. Plus, I was sort of playing on the fact that the objective of every AA/fan case is to have the defense win - this is the same here. ...Even if you don't want it.

That's all for my critique, but I do have one question about the ending. Cross said Dawns was supposedly planning his murder, but the way you have it here, it almost looks like she's committing suicide. Is she killing herself, or is it part of some plan to get to Cross? I'm confused.

She was committing suicide. Cross was just wrong in his assumption. XP
EDIT: I forgot to mention the music choices were quite good. Particularly the one from Sherlock Holmes.
Sligneris wrote:Could you provide links as well?

Also, that trial name... looks familiar :P

(I know that this fangame was made before DD)
I... Ill see if I could post it someday (although, I used the titles of the YT vids I ripped most of the tracks from, so a YT search could do just as well...)
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by KruskaTheLizard »

DWaM,
All I've gotta say that this is one best cases I've ever played! Not that I've played many.
Well, the difficulty os astounding but for me it adds to the experience.
Oh I've used the walkthrough for the whole case *shot*
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by DWaM »

Thank you very much!
And don't worry, nobody can exactly blame you for using the walkthrough for what's arguably unfair difficulty.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by mAc Chaos »

Time to see what you guys have been up to while I've been gone.

So this was a contest winner. I'm playing it now, and will give my analysis once I'm done.
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by SwagmaWampyr »

I don't mean to go off-topic here so I'll just keep it brief:

Since you're back, mAc-baby, how about dat MACFIA?
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Re: [T][CE] Turnabout Tomorrow ★

Post by mAc Chaos »

lol, you remember. I was fiddling with it the other day. As in today. I had the entire thing planned out already, but then I ended up focusing on other things. Motivation is the main problem nowadays.

Now, onto the main topic.

So, as I comment: Unlimited Review Works

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"Why the confused look, DWaM? Is it not normal for there to be a supervisor?"

It's been a while since I've touched any trials, and I think this is the first DWaM trial I've played. Not sure what other trials you made, DWaM, but in this one I saw definite good stuff, and also room for improvement. Keep in mind while reading this that I enjoyed the trial; even though I will point out flaws, the overall picture is good.

Speaking if pictures: I lightly skimmed the thread, and I noticed some controversy over using existing sprites for OCs. I for one have no problem at all with that, and can easily put my imagination into whatever new character there is. Of course, it's on the writer to make sure that they present more than just the same exact character with a different name. The character sprites themselves carry certain characterizations and convey certain personality traits, so you can't just pick any old set of sprites.

There are generally two ways to go about handling this: either pick character sprites that match up with the kind of character you want, or deliberately choose sprites that are the opposite. If you do the former, you'll have to write well to differentiate the character from their AA self. If you do the latter, you run the risk of having the character just not fit (imagine someone super perky and hyper with Vera's sprite set). In either case, both are valid, it just depends on the execution.

For this trial, overall I found it had a good story, but it stumbled over the implementation. Most of the problems relate to how the testimonies were handled and story progressed.

Things I Liked:
  • Let's start with the characters. I thought you did a great job with Yalt and Cross. Both of them came off differently from Trucy and Phoenix, although I liked Yalt more.
  • When I first saw Masterson, I was wondering how you'd be able to do anything with that single De Killer sprite. But in the end he came off well.
  • The music was good old Umineko among other things. Good, although it's been used so much now I instantly was reminded of other trials.
  • I liked the way you weaved the characters relationships and past through the case. Normally that is done over the span of a game, but you managed to fit it into one case.
  • I have to give you credit for trying out the serious Judge, although I think ultimately I like our traditional goofy Judge more.
  • I freaking loved the cameo of a certain character. It felt like I was playing the AA games. He acted exactly how I thought he would act. I always like it when people do that and pull it off; what's more, the era this places the case in is my favorite. If I ever make another case I will make a cameo with his villainous counterpart.
  • The twists in the story, especially at the end, are what makes this case.
  • I liked the Sherlock / Death Note themes although it just made me hungrier to see more details.
  • Almost forgot! The whole presence of the villain / chess theme was also ominous and great.
Things I Didn't Like:
  • I mentioned the problems with implementation. By far the most obvious thing was the testimonies. They were way too long and convoluted. Each testimony I saw could have probably been broken up into many smaller testimonies. When you end up having them huge like this you have so many contradictions and things going on at once that it kind of hurts the direction of the case.

    Look at how the official AA games do it: they never have a testimony going in 50 different directions. It always starts with one point, then you just keep drilling down until you end up in a completely new place. Writing it that way so it all fits is hard, but much more coherent. That way you feel like you're making progress, rather than just throwing whatever at the wall and seeing what sticks.
  • On the same point, the relation between the evidence presented and contradiction was really loose. I bet almost everybody had to look at the walkthrough. When that happens it's a sign telling you that the testimony and contradiction are too unclear. Stuff that could have helped here would also have been things like maps, since we have so many different situations balancing against each other that it's hard to keep track of who was where and when. And it's also hard to know what exactly each piece of evidence is supposed to represent since it could refer to a vague line somebody said 4 testimonies ago, which you have no way of knowing. Basically it comes down to needing to make evidence that contains these facts and states them clearly so they will not be lost in the shuffle. This is nothing new for trial authors and happens to pretty much everyone.
  • Oh, also: Super Objections. They have the same exact problem. They were novel the first time but it's just played out now. Every time I see a Super Objection coming up I groan. Literally impossible to ever know what to present.
  • Going back to story, the story itself was good, but the way it progressed was sometimes kind of meandering. This is mainly because the testimonies had so much going on in them, so you'd present one thing and then Cross would start going on about 50 different contradictions and factors in the case.

    It ended up giving me the feeling that I was just pushing a "solve testimony" button and watching a movie unrelated to the contradiction unfold rather than having them tightly linked together, if that makes sense. Almost like Cross was just making stuff up and seeing if they could refute it rather than following a chain of deductions that necessarily point to one conclusion. Mainly because he makes lots of leaps and such that aren't covered in a step by step presenting fashion, so you feel like a spectator. Basically, if any case needs Thought Route, it's this one.
  • Some of the dialogue kept going on just way too long. Especially those Cross internal monologues. It got to the point where I forgot what they were even discussing a few times. On the one hand, I could see that you were trying to maybe use that as a way to give him a character quirk, but it can also backfire just like people like with Oldbag and Larry. You could state the same things much more succinctly across the board.
  • Also, I wish some of the relationships got fleshed out more. We see some flashbacks, and they end up critically important to the case, so having some of those gaps filled like how a character went from point A to point B in their outlook would have helped.
Lastly, regarding the final big twist at the end:
Spoiler : TWIST :
I was waiting the entire time during that big testimony Cross was giving for Masterson to be like, "lol joke's on you, I was recording it the entire time! hazama.gif"

I loved how slyly smug E was with the Judge during the verdict.

Also what was the disease he had? For some reason I got the impression that Masterson figured out he was E before the trial and poisoned him or something. And was it ever covered how Groud escapes the asylum?
Anyway, I think that covers everything. I had fun playing, and I could tell you put in a lot of effort. So good work, and I look forward to seeing you produce more.
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