[T] Turnabout Curtain ●

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DWaM
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by DWaM »

@Gumpei:
Well... round 2, I guess!

(My response might seem a bit disorienting and poorly structured... and that's probably because it is. Feeling shockingly tired today...)
Spoiler : Reponses :
Looking back at it all, I can definitely see your point about the solution. To be honest, I never for once really thought about the response of "mystery junkies", as you put it - I thought that, as long as it made logical sense in terms of execution (of the murder plan, I mean), there wouldn't be much blacklash. And, to be honest, I didn't really care if there was. My intent in doing these fancases was always to do something different, something new. This generally stemmed from my own lack of ability to structure crimes. Plots, I can do... okay most of the time. Crimes, not so much. This generally lead to me either overcomplicating matters, which, in turn, lead to overcomplicating the structure of the trial, which lead to overcomplicating contradictions, which lead to Turnabout Tomorrow (and then Empty, later on). This started to sort of... bother me and in my way later cases (I have a LOT of unfinished stuff and ideas I'd been working on and a lot of unfinished scripts), I'd noticed that the crimes were getting simpler, testimonies shorter. And I was fine with that, because I realized that crimes weren't what was important to me - but characters, generally. So I just took and did stuff with them. And generally, that's the part people always liked.

But, for my last case, I figured, I had to do something insane. And the reason for this wasn't so much my need to always do something different, believe it or not, but the fact that I'd sort of gotten back into reading (into, not so much actually reading) comic books. They do some... weeeeeeird stuff there.

My original idea for my last case wasn't even a reboot of Curtain. It was a case set shortly after the events of DD (like three months or so) centered around Phoenix slowly realizing that he'd fulfilled his purpose as a defense attorney and deciding to let Apollo take over. It was originally my idea for the current case comp, but I eventually decided to drop it. It had... too many of my previous tropes, I thought.

Oh, but it also had Polly the Parrot be an evil genius mastermind that became the head of a crime syndicate after being experimented on in a lab. Incidentally, she was also the final mastermind.

I am dead serious.

So, yeah -- considering that mentality, Curtain was always to have an insane conclusion. The idea of a "ghost" was something that had occurred to me shortly before my "breakdown" (after Case 1 of DRRP2 had been wrapped up, I mean). It was never supposed to be that significant to the things that happened in the actual crime, but I also didn't really know how much I could do with it at the time, so I put it off. Then, as I was coming up with ideas for the reboot, I realized that it would work perfectly with Curtain's set up.

And thus, Verity was created.

Now, I also knew, going in, that I would probably not have a chance to set up her ghost properly without making the twist entirely obvious from the get-go (which would've ruined everything that came afterwards) or making it just... unclear enough. In my original draft of the story, I intended it so that Lure was the one who brought Verity back through a series of occult rituals (the remains of which would've been discovered during the "night" phase of the investigation by Phoenix and co., before he went to the det. center). This idea was scrapped since I figured it would just add to the confusion of the situation after the revelation at the det. center, and immediately send it back to the old version of Curtain. And I just... didn't want that. I couldn't allow the player going into the court phase TOO confused about the situation.

Not to mention it sort of went against what I was setting up for Lure at that point, anyway.

I DO like the idea of using the cult to set up more of it, though. I'll probably add more to it in the next update.

But generally speaking, I always looked at this version of Curtain as more of a short story, than anything. A novella. I'd figured that small bits and pieces of information (the sounds Lure heard at night, the memory losses, the perfect double, Andrea's remarks during their confrontation in court, Hyde's OWN remarks in court she gave jokingly, Jeremiah's cult and the fact that there are "ghosts" in the PW universe, sort of, the idea that Verity was the person that shot herself from the small bits and pieces of hints here and there) would be enough to justify it, since I just wasn't able to come up with a good idea of properly foreshadowing it in its entirety.

On a side-note, I might have mentioned this before, but while the original Curtain had no supernatural elements in its solution, it was based around the idea of "a culprit that could never be caught by the law". This was a theme that appeared in Agatha Christie's final Poirot novel "Curtain", hence the name of the case. I did intend to change before releasing this, but ultimately sided against it.

Onto the other stuff...

Phoenix was always meant to be written in his ACE HOBO demeanor, actually. That was something I was dead-set on doing, since I hated how he was portrayed in DD. The reason that Curtain takes place two years after AJ was just so I could make it set in stone that people have changed. They just aren't the same people you started out with. Hence why Apollo is more open with talking Phoenix not as his boss but his equal, and Trucy... well, she gets her own arc. I can understand how people would find it strange, but, perhaps, but again - the point was to show in the beginning that Phoenix's ACE HOBO-ness was the result of him becoming "wiser" and "in control" as the years went by, but then as the case goes on become more and more serious as he realizes everything's slowly falling apart.

On the presents thing... the only times I think the player would've been stuck during the investigation would've been during either the "day" phase when they have to present hyde's profile to Tiala, OR during the "sunset" phase where they have to present jeremiah's profile (and of course during the minigame but that's another thing altogether). I can't really think of a way around this aside from adding more optional presents (which, again, I'm not sure how much would be done).

And because the investigation is non-linear in both of these instances, it would've been extremely hard for me to be able to predict what the player has and hasn't done and give consistent hints from Trucy...

And as for the riddle... well...

YOU BEAT IT WHICH MEANS ITS POSSIBLE WHICH MEANS YOU DONT GET TO COMPLAIN BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA IM BULLETPROOF BABY

(I'd considered maybe adding the "where the player went wrong" in the failure convo, but I eventually realized that it would be impossible for me to account for every theory that might pop into their heads - the questions are set in stone, but I have no idea how the player interpreted them, what combination they used would've been too much and on top of that I would have to come up with a general idea of what they were going for which... would've been practically impossible for me

I'd also mentioned this before to some people, but my original idea was to add a "cheat" option where you could just go to Edgeworth to solve it for you and just skip the entire thing; without finding out the solution as a price, of course

but then I was like
Image
and thus, i gave you the most satisfying moment of your life

no pain no game SUN)

...
Also, the Tiala typo in the evidence is sort of embarrassing, but not the first time it's happened - for some reason I kept mixing the two of them up... (Could've sworn I'd fixed it, though...)
Thanks for playing, hope you had fun!

EDIT
Based on some of the feedback, I've released a 1.01 update which you can download from here (it's a small download, requires that you downloaded the previous version - just drop it into the 'games' folder of your pywright subfolder).

It fixes a minor bug found, some spelling errors and adds some new lines in certain places. Also changes the case select image to the art in the banner.

Would've re-uploaded the entire game, as well for the sake of convenience, but... Mediafire kinda screwed me over there...

Will be included in the next major update (whenever it comes - should it even be necessary).
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by NihilisticNinja »

Now that I've played the case twice I feel obligated to post SOMETHING in the way of a review. Probably won't be anything great, but let's roll. (Also this is going to be SOCy and thus ridiculously unfocused. Just kinda have to suck that up.)
Spoiler : Curtain 2.0 spoilers :
I'm not going to complain this case to Curtain 1.0 that much, simply because without knowing the originally intended solution it's a bit tricky to do a compare and contrast. But I will say that one of Curtain's biggest problems was its focus. There were simply far too many mysteries and curiosities thrown in there and there seemed to be basically no central thread tying everything together. So in the end, it just ends up being really confusing and overwhelming.

That's completely fixed here. There are still a good deal of mysteries, it's true, but they all feel connected to the Lure case in some way and it never feels like you're just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks, which admittedly is the kind of feel that Curtain 1.0 had at points. The case is fantastically structured in general- everything felt like it flowed naturally from one scene to the next, which is really impressive given the sheer amount of material that is covered in the investigation. Nothing felt particularly forced and I never felt particularly overwhelmed, which was nice.

I will say that I think that the open-ended investigation structure was both a smart choice and a mistake. I liked the way it wasn't entirely linear and the way that you could forget something and then go back and talk about it with the character- it felt really natural and I think it definitely made all the information easier to absorb and less overwhelming. That said, the lack of any real indication of when you're done with a character led to a bit of frustration at times, as I hit a wall where I accidentally forgot to present something to somebody, and ended up having to go around in circles going to everyone and presenting everything to make sure I had all my bases covered. (As you know it happened when it came to presenting Jeremiah to Edgeworth- I really think you should have some kind of hint that we should do that because it really isn't an intuitive action- but I also forgot to present the tape recorder to Edgeworth too. Oops. ^_^; ) Like, I'm not positive exactly what one could do to fix this without ruining the reasons why the open-ended structure was a good idea, but I'll admit to it being slightly frustrating at times.

The characterization of the canon characters is incredibly solid. Everybody felt genuine and either authentic to their canonical selves, or close enough that the time gap makes their behavior understandable. I definitely appreciate you going with AJ Nick and not DD Nick because DD Nick was really really dull and AJ Nick was far more entertaining to play as, for sure. I also really love the stuff you did with Trucy, especially right at the end of the vinestigation segment- I don't feel like she really gets enough time to shine as a character, even in the games themselves. so just seeing her slowly break out until she totally gives out right at the end was very interesting to watch.

The OCs were really interesting as well. All of them had a level of depth and nuance that made them really interesting to interact with. They didn't really have an AA-feel to them, but they were interesting and entertaining enough in their own right that that never really bothered me that much. The directions that you ended up taking the characters was continually compelling and very interesting. Verity in particular was an incredibly compelling antagonist when all was said and done, she had a good deal of nuance and understandable motivations for why she did everything she did, as cruel as much of it was.

It did bug me that it felt like there were a couple plot threads that didn't really serve that much of a purpose or didn't end up going anywhere. Like, I feel like the cult aspect could have been cut out with very little damage being done to the story as a whole. And Kristoph's attempt at revenge just felt like a gratuitous way to add more drama when it was totally unnecessary. I didn't mind it being in the case, per se, but at the same time it could have been cut and I wouldn't have missed its inclusion at all. It did create a nice twist at the end and its resolution contributed to the satisfying feeling of the ending, but at the same time it still felt incredibly unnecessary.

I will say that although I was able to figure out the riddle again- I never had that much difficulty with it- I do feel like its inclusion was... kinda random and unnecessary. Like it kinda made some level of sense in original Curtain what-with being a battle of whits with Shannon (though exactly what she wanted to do that wasn't particularly well established, but again unfinished case, that could have been explored later.) Here it just kinda feels a bit more forced. But it's not a big deal and it was an interesting way to have the story progress despite there being basically no way to prove that "Mr. Hyde" existed, due to the nature of her identity.

The trial was incredibly well done as well- I definitely enjoyed the initial process of having to play devil's advocate and then figure out ways to shoot down my own theories- it was entertaining and forced the player to think their ideas through and really engage with the mystery. Then Verity just kinda throws in a secret passage out of nowhere, but hey, it was fun while it lasted. The contradictions honestly never felt too hard- they were typically intuitive and when they weren't I was able to figure them out with a bit of creative thinking- I never really got too frustrated while playing the game, which is definitely a plus.

I honestly didn't mind the solution of the mystery that much. My first guess when it came to what was going on with Apollo was that the abuse that Andrea had inflicted upon him had ended up causing him to suffer from Hollywood DID, and that the non-Apollo personality had emerged and killed Lure. Compared to that, possession was honestly something of a relief. And I definitely feel like it was adequately clued- Lure's imaginings that there was somebody in the house besides herself and Deliah, the bizarre memory loss, the fact that "Mr. Hyde" was somehow able to look and sound exactly like Apollo, etc. I definitely don't feel like it was unclued, and I feel like Verity's imaginary convo with Lure, the fact that the things that the culprit knew and their comments/"interactions" with Lure basically make no sense unless it's Verity, etc. Definitely set up adequate groundwork for it to be a logical solution. The whole "forced possession" angle is something that is completely unheard of in the AA-verse and I do wish there was some way that that could have been established, but I'm not even sure how one would go about doing that, so I can't really complain that much.

In the end, the case's biggest strength is that it's just fantastically written. I started the case at around 10-11 PM the first time I played it, and I couldn't put it down until I'd finished the whole thing. The dialogue is incredibly well done, both when trying to be comedic and when trying to be serious. The story is continually interesting and managed to hook me right at the start and never let go. Aside from some typos here and there that didn't really end up bothering me that much, it was a ridiculously well-written case in pretty much all respects.

It's really sad that this is your final case DWaM, in that you are continually managed to pump out great cases in a ridiculously short amount of time, but this is definitely a great note to end on.
So yeah, there is that. I feel like I was going to say something here, but I honestly can't remember what it was. Great case, and fantastic work all-around, DWaM. I wish you the best in all your future endeavors.
"With good friends by your side, anything is possible. If you really care for each other, it makes everyone stronger! Then you'll have the will to succeed! The world is filled with painful things, it's sad sometimes, and you won't be able to handle it by yourself. But just know: If there's someone that you love, you'll stay on the right path. And you won't ever give in! As long as you keep that person in your heart, you'll keep getting back up. Understand? That's why a Hero never loses!"
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roaringjohn
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by roaringjohn »

Spoiler : Prologue Spoilers :
Jeez, first case of the trial and we won... just because the Payne's only witness left the courthouse.
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DWaM
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by DWaM »

Oh, geez, it took me this time to reply to this.

Hersh, this is your fault

@NN:
Spoiler : Responses :
Thank you for playing and for the kind words!

I'm glad other people are starting to realize that the original Curtain wasn't... all that great. It wasn't even so much as lack of focus for me, though, as much as it was how the story itself was told. It was a disjointed, incomprehensible mess at times, and really - only the people who were used to that sort of story structure in Umineko (which was a huge influence in my writing at the time) could follow.

For Curtain 2.0, I wanted to keep the story as straightforward as I could, but also make the atmosphere strange enough to the point where it slowly started drifting away from the classic AA formula.

I can definitely see your problems with the investigation - and I have put in a few extra convos with Trucy to try and give hints to the player this time in the 1.01 update thingy. Better than that, I can't do. (My original reasoning was that the players would be more intrigued at Jeremiah and ask someone about him eventually... guess some other stuff happened and they lost it among other intriguing stuff?)

The cult aspect was there because I wanted to establish a certain degree of mysticism, just so that - once again - the ghost aspect didn't come completely out of nowhere. In addition, I needed an explanation as to how Verity had no psyche-locks on her while Phoenix was talking to him in the detention center.

The riddle was there mainly because I thought it would add an interesting aspect to the investigation and just because... well, I think it's a cool riddle! The way I concluded it did feel a bit... iffy to me at the time of writing it, but I think it doesn't come off as strong if the person playing hadn't seen the way it was included in the original.

And -- yeah, while the existence of the ghost is something that I can set up, I really can't do much about the forced possession bit. Even suggesting it would just give it all away.
Thanks for playing! I'm glad you liked it as much as you did!

My hope is that the trialmaking community will be able to produce interesting content over the years and I really look forward to playing it!

@roaringjohn
Spoiler : Prologue :
An insane case needs an insane opening.
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by Calvinball »

I finally got around to downloading all the stuff when I realized that the Turnabout Curtain files are .rar files. Does one need to be able to open .rar files in order to use them in Pywright? Because if so, I might need to install some programs before I can start playing.
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by Reverie »

Download winrar anywhere. Even if it's a free trial, winrar is infamous for having a free trial that never, ever ends. Then just double click the .rar and open it with winrar, then follow the opening post's instructions.
Last edited by Reverie on Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by kwando1313 »

Personally, I use 7zip.
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by Calvinball »

Thanks for the recommendations! I opened the files and now I'm playing through the case.
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by Gamer2002 »

Played this and I liked it. You made pretty big and complex but not obnoxious investigation section (heck, it was way bigger than trial's section imo), and the only moment I did stuck was when I forgot to present one of profiles to Edgy, what was only my fault.
Good thing I did solve you know what in the original Curtain ;P
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : Help, I'm stuck? :
Somehow, I think I'm stuck in the first investigation. I've examined everything in Dorian's home and exhausted the talk options with Michael Tiala, and the walkthrough says to then go to the Wright Anything Agency and... point at the bracelet? Nothing happened when I went to the Wright Anything Agency and there's nothing to examine, so... help?
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by Reverie »

Calvinball wrote:
Spoiler : Help, I'm stuck? :
Somehow, I think I'm stuck in the first investigation. I've examined everything in Dorian's home and exhausted the talk options with Michael Tiala, and the walkthrough says to then go to the Wright Anything Agency and... point at the bracelet? Nothing happened when I went to the Wright Anything Agency and there's nothing to examine, so... help?
examine the clock in Larry's house
Spoiler : :
Did you present everything to Edgeworth, including Jeremiah?

...Or alternatively, the "Present -> Dorian's Profile, Lure's Profile, Dorian's Photo" line, because you might have skipped one of those (or at least, I did)
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : Now I'm confused :
For some reason, when I present Dorian's profile to Tiala, Trucy, or Edgeworth I just get the random evidence conversation. If I present Lure's profile to Tiala or Edgeworth I just get the random evidence conversation. And if I present Dorian's photo to Tiala or Trucy I just get the random evidence conversation. And, in all cases, nothing changed. So... what am I missing???
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by DWaM »

@Gamer2002
Thanks for playing, glad you liked it! The case itself I imagined wouldn't be that long overall anyway, and the investigation just went a bit longer because I came up with a lot of ideas as I went along and wanted to have some fun.

@calvinball
Spoiler : What\who spyro was referring to :
Deliah
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by Calvinball »

@DWaM: Strange... STILL nothing. What could I have missed? o.0 Or did I just set up Pywright wrong?
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Re: [T] Turnabout Curtain ●

Post by DWaM »

Spoiler : :
Have you presented Jeremiah's profile and Dorian'a photo to Edgeworth?
Have you presented Apollo's profile to Edgeworth?
Have you presented Lure's profile to Deliah and exhausted ALL talk options?
Have you examined everything in Dorian's place?
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