[GK2♫][M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

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Ferdielance
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Re: [M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by Ferdielance »

Spoiler : Spoiler cut :
I have mixed feelings about this case. What it does well, it does brilliantly. What it does badly, it does badly, indeed. If I had to summarize my thoughts in three sentences: "All the virtues of Turnabout Tomorrow, but more refined. Some of the flaws of Turnabout Tomorrow, including a tendency to bully-worshipping tropes, but less extreme. Overambitious in scope, too reliant on vague metaphorical angst rather than specifics, but still a remarkable case and a solid achievement."

Edit: The ending I got was actually less satisfying than the one that most people get on their first try - mostly because I guessed a password that I wasn't supposed to guess. On doing things a little differently, I got a better ending that most people see earlier to get that password, and this was more satisfying, if still dark. I'll get the True Ending next, based on instructions from the board.

I'm revising my review upward cautiously.

Edit: Having seen the True Ending, I think this game should have quit while it was ahead in some ways. The level of darkness cross the line from depressing to hilarious. I thought all of the AU stuff was just Phoenix's paranoid fantasies, a way of exploring how grief causes us to dwell on the worst.

But nope, the tragic death really happened that way!

CT stands for Comedy Trial

And this is a shame, because Mia's scene in the True Ending was genuinely affecting, and there were any number of bits of good writing buried in the flood of insane melodrama.
"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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DWaM
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Re: [M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by DWaM »

Spoiler : :
Welp, can't exactly go "no ur wrong and you clearly don't understand mah geniuz". Especially when there are parts of this thing that even I don't like.

And I personally have a major dislike for 'it was all a dream' kind of things (you could argue this kind of is, even with the explanation, but in my opinion - it's better than having Phoenix just... waking up) since it kind of renders everything completely meaningless. And especially considering how dark the case is, the player would have virtually nothing but the knowledge that he'd just potentially spent hours on a story and just got... poof! "Nah, it's all good gaiz"

Still, glad you played it, if nothing else.
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Re: [M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by Ferdielance »

Spoiler : SPOILERS :
I'm not saying "It's all a dream" would have been better, not unless the clues that the AUs were fantasies were clearer. But consider these questions:

* Given that the plot involved Edgeworth sending Larry to kidnap Maya, accidentally killing her, and one branch ended in Grimdark Vengeance Trucy, could the player be blamed for deciding that this all had to be an outlandish, insane nightmare?

* How did Larry even manage to accidentally kill Maya? She has blood on the front of her robe, and she's standing up - that doesn't look like a head wound from a struggle. What method of accidental death would do that? Did Larry think the kidnapping would be more believable if he brought a real gun? Did he disguise himself as the new superhero Covered With Knives Man?

* How many of the following Grimdark characters are actually Grimdark in the True Ending?
  • Grimdark Phoenix
    Grimdark Edgeworth
    Grimdark Non-Udgey-Judge
    Grimdark Larry
    Grimdark Trucy
    Grimdark Gumshoe
    Grimdark Mr. Hat
    Not to mention all the characters who were Grimdark by default (Kristoph, corporate crooks)
* If Gumshoe wasn't a traitor in the True Ending, who was leaking to the blackmailers? Larry? Gant? Udgey? Was Phoenix's logic in that AU just absolutely flatly wrong?

* Why would Edgeworth be cowed by the threat of revealing that he was the Demon Prosecutor... after Gant's conviction already aired his dirty laundry? For that matter, why was someone who stood up to the Chief of Police AND the Chief Prosecutor simultaneously so easily manipulated? Did Ozymandias threaten to cancel The Steel Samurai?

* Grimdark Mr. Hat? I mean, that was effective on its own, but in the context of the rest of the case...

And yet CT is still better than Turnabout Tomorrow, and TT was an influential, innovative case. So it's not a failure by any means. The Twilight Zone feel of the Theater segments was good. The atmosphere in general was good. When characters were actually allowed to be themselves, the dialogue was solid.

But

* GRIMDARK MR. HAT?
"A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!"
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Re: [M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by DWaM »

Ferdielance wrote:
Spoiler : SPOILERS :
I'm not saying "It's all a dream" would have been better, not unless the clues that the AUs were fantasies were clearer. But consider these questions:

* Given that the plot involved Edgeworth sending Larry to kidnap Maya, accidentally killing her, and one branch ended in Grimdark Vengeance Trucy, could the player be blamed for deciding that this all had to be an outlandish, insane nightmare?

* How did Larry even manage to accidentally kill Maya? She has blood on the front of her robe, and she's standing up - that doesn't look like a head wound from a struggle. What method of accidental death would do that? Did Larry think the kidnapping would be more believable if he brought a real gun? Did he disguise himself as the new superhero Covered With Knives Man?
Well, it's an 'accident' in his eyes. Also, I don't seem to recall any actual mention of a head wound...
Really, the whole Larry plot was me playing on the question "What if Larry had the potential to kill?" The closest we saw was 1-1, but there he was beaten to it by Sawhit - would he have perhaps reacted differently had he gotten the chance to confront Stone? We already know he's over-emotional and we know he's an idiot. In the "right" circumstances, couldn't those feature serve to describe an impulsive individual who, since he never had control of a situation to begin with, take it to a new level?


* How many of the following Grimdark characters are actually Grimdark in the True Ending?
  • Grimdark Phoenix
    Grimdark Edgeworth
    Grimdark Non-Udgey-Judge
    Grimdark Larry
    Grimdark Trucy
    Grimdark Gumshoe
    Grimdark Mr. Hat
    Not to mention all the characters who were Grimdark by default (Kristoph, corporate crooks)
...I think only Phoenix (well, before the actual end), Larry, Kristoph and Edgeworth can be considered "grimdark" in the True Ending (mainly because they're the ones that pretty much show up in it).

* If Gumshoe wasn't a traitor in the True Ending, who was leaking to the blackmailers? Larry? Gant? Udgey? Was Phoenix's logic in that AU just absolutely flatly wrong?
Nah, he's still a traitor in the True Ending. The difference is that after seeing all the crap that goes down in the AUs and seeing what happens when he tries to fight and take revenge - he loses more than he gains - Phoenix just decides to let it go.

* Why would Edgeworth be cowed by the threat of revealing that he was the Demon Prosecutor... after Gant's conviction already aired his dirty laundry? For that matter, why was someone who stood up to the Chief of Police AND the Chief Prosecutor simultaneously so easily manipulated? Did Ozymandias threaten to cancel The Steel Samurai?
Well, I'm sort of going off my memory here, but I was always under the impression that Gant never actually substantially proved everything Edgeworth had done, but rather simply said he was corrupt publicly to screw with him and get him to back off. Edgeworth, feeling ashamed, left while Gant, being caught and content with his verdict, never actually revealed what Edgeworth had done.
As for Edgeworth bowing down - I suppose that's where this big "What-if" scenario started. (Even with the True End, this thing obviously isn't in the standard AA continuity - still an AU that through the events of AJ reached its conclusion). In retrospect, the normal Edgeworth probably wouldn't have bowed down so easily and he certainly wouldn't have taken it to the extremes that he did. But even if it wasn't an alternative scenario - the way I saw it, considering that "The Dark Age of Law" (dammit, I can't believe I'm actually trying to tie into that) was slowly starting upon them and considering that the loss was far bigger than the gain (since all the trials he was involved in over the past few years would come into question and all the potential criminals released) he did it for the "greater good".


* Grimdark Mr. Hat? I mean, that was effective on its own, but in the context of the rest of the case...

And yet CT is still better than Turnabout Tomorrow, and TT was an influential, innovative case. So it's not a failure by any means. The Twilight Zone feel of the Theater segments was good. The atmosphere in general was good. When characters were actually allowed to be themselves, the dialogue was solid.

But

* GRIMDARK MR. HAT?
I never actually saw him as grimdark so much as just... a creepy narrative device, at first. XP The idea kinda came randomly during the Despair Comp, but since at the time I had other stuff I should've been doing, I shelved it. ...At the time, I also had him tell the story of Phoenix and Edgeworth robbing a bank and then Nick screwing Edgey over because... er...
Wait, I don't actually remember why...

Anyway, yeah. This was more of me just putting characters into the darkest scenario possible, something they hadn't really faced before, and exploring how they would react to it (which ended up coming off as OOC, I suppose - but even if not, I guess that the reaction can be considered justified when you put characters you're familiar with and add your own stuff on top of it...)
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Re: [M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by Gamer2002 »

Spoiler : :
But Trucy isn't Grimdark in true ending, she is only Grimdark in No Goodbyes one where she kills Kristoph.
And Mr. Hat was Grimdark by default since he is Mr. Hat of Magnifi, who is one of darkest AA characters.

I have other problems with this
Supposedly, Matt Engarde won. Phoenix decided to go back to being attorney after all, ok. Still, I can't see how events of AA3 could take place. Godot already won by default since Phoenix proved that he is not like Mia by letting Matt won. Shouldn't Iris be Guilty of murder? Though it was suggested on Edgeworth's suicide scene that Godot still is a prosecutor, so I guess he let her go, somehow. Though if that is the case, why Godot doesn't show up at any point? Maya's death should make him extremely angry at Phoenix.

Larry twist was out of nowhere and in not a good way. After all his scenes in other endings sudden reveal that he accidentally killed Maya just doesn't fit. If that was the truth, how he could initially think that Edgeworth would be any help for Phoenix? How he could think that he could help Phoenix? How he could live with Phoenix after Edgeworth's suicide? "Larry is an idiot" isn't acceptable explanation.
Gumshoe one, though better foreshadowed, still is a twisting character for a sake of twisting it. He so many times was in risk of losing job due to own incompetence or helping Phoenix/Edgeworth, how could Ozymandias be even sure he could keep his eye on Edgy? Did Ozymandias did something 35 minutes ago to prevent this?
Not to mention, wasn't it established in 1-5 that Edgeworth never (willingly) used forged evidence and only Gant manipulated him? I would buy more him starting making bad decisions since Matt Engarde fiasco, seeing that after all he is alone in his fight against crime. Though I accept that JFA "ending" is the reason why he didn't have backbone against blackmail.
Trucy killing Kristoph in No Goodbyes is how turning characters dark should be done. Kristoph ruins her family, Phoenix tells her something about betrayal, and after years she decides to avenger her family. This was effect of our actions and I accept this.

Overall, it still is good. I have no problems with True Ending (besides Larry twist), it was satisfying.
I still have to play other entries but it seems like a deserved win.
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Re: [M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by DWaM »

(Replies in red)
Gamer2002 wrote:
Spoiler : :
But Trucy isn't Grimdark in true ending, she is only Grimdark in No Goodbyes one where she kills Kristoph.
And Mr. Hat was Grimdark by default since he is Mr. Hat of Magnifi, who is one of darkest AA characters.

I have other problems with this
Supposedly, Matt Engarde won. Phoenix decided to go back to being attorney after all, ok. Still, I can't see how events of AA3 could take place. Godot already won by default since Phoenix proved that he is not like Mia by letting Matt won. Shouldn't Iris be Guilty of murder? Though it was suggested on Edgeworth's suicide scene that Godot still is a prosecutor, so I guess he let her go, somehow. Though if that is the case, why Godot doesn't show up at any point? Maya's death should make him extremely angry at Phoenix.
? But Engarde didn't win. I do seem to remember mentioning it, but when I did, I think I was trying to make a connection between Phoenix resigning Engarde's case in the middle of the trial (and such an attitude would be problematic in Edgeworth's eyes when dealing with Walker).

Larry twist was out of nowhere and in not a good way. After all his scenes in other endings sudden reveal that he accidentally killed Maya just doesn't fit. If that was the truth, how he could initially think that Edgeworth would be any help for Phoenix? How he could think that he could help Phoenix? How he could live with Phoenix after Edgeworth's suicide? "Larry is an idiot" isn't acceptable explanation.
I'm not saying that this applies for "Larry is an idiot". It merely applies for the act of him becoming a murderer. He, also, in a way is trying to figure out what to do after doing what he did. Does he try making Edgeworth and Phoenix up? After all, if Phoenix is able to forgive Edgeworth, who he believes responsible for what happened to Maya, then surely he could forgive him. Does he just confess? If he does that, then the world ends up hating him, as well as the people held dear the most. And seeing how much he's afraid of being hated, that was out of the question. Regardless, he wants to be by Nick's side because he feels both guilt and fear from what he's done.
But generally, the Larry twist was sort of intentional in coming out of nowhere - I was also trying to go with the idea that "there isn't just one story". Since the focus was mostly on Phoenix and Edgeworth, I intentionally left out the majority of his side. ...If that makes sense. Just like Ozymandias was the villain, even if he didn't have a lot to do with Phoenix himself.

Gumshoe one, though better foreshadowed, still is a twisting character for a sake of twisting it. He so many times was in risk of losing job due to own incompetence or helping Phoenix/Edgeworth, how could Ozymandias be even sure he could keep his eye on Edgy? Did Ozymandias did something 35 minutes ago to prevent this?
Not to mention, wasn't it established in 1-5 that Edgeworth never (willingly) used forged evidence and only Gant manipulated him? I would buy more him starting making bad decisions since Matt Engarde fiasco, seeing that after all he is alone in his fight against crime. Though I accept that JFA "ending" is the reason why he didn't have backbone against blackmail.
I tried implying this, but he did care for Edgeworth and was actually shocked when he witnessed Edgeworth being hanged. That being said... some things were a little more important to him. He eventually moved on and became corrupted far more than he was before. I could claim it was just sort "lolAU", but the entire scenario is basically taking the canon to the extreme. After making so many sacrifices you mentioned above, practically paying to go to work after all the salary cuts, after his detective skills being brought into question time and time again publicly... how much can the support and love for others carry you? He was in a bad spot. He had his own hopes and dreams. Would sacrificing himself again and again pay off in the end?

...Also, as far as the Edgeworth thing goes, I thought that was only established for the SL-9 incident?

Trucy killing Kristoph in No Goodbyes is how turning characters dark should be done. Kristoph ruins her family, Phoenix tells her something about betrayal, and after years she decides to avenger her family. This was effect of our actions and I accept this.

Overall, it still is good. I have no problems with True Ending (besides Larry twist), it was satisfying.
I still have to play other entries but it seems like a deserved win.
Thanks for playing!
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Re: [GK2♫][M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by Gamer2002 »

Spoiler : :
? But Engarde didn't win. I do seem to remember mentioning it, but when I did, I think I was trying to make a connection between Phoenix resigning Engarde's case in the middle of the trial (and such an attitude would be problematic in Edgeworth's eyes when dealing with Walker).
Well, for me Kristoph saying "but Mr. Engarde should be grateful and so Mr. Walker" clearly meant that Matt won and Phoenix ran from court before Not Guilty verdict and exact same thing happened later on with Walker. But maybe I've read too much into it.

I've played 1-5 long time ago, but I remember Edgeworth saying that he actually never resorted to using fake evidence. Maybe I remember wrong.

As for Larry and Gumshoe, I understand what you tried to accomplish, but twisting both of them so much couldn't not backfire with reactions ;P
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Re: [GK2♫][M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by DWaM »

Spoiler : :
When saying Engarde should be "grateful", it's in the sense that he should be grateful he wasn't found "Not Guilty" and served to DeKiller.

He was talking about trials that brought the most media attention to Nick. Hence, he switched over to his most recent one - Walker.

...And to be honest, I don't exactly remember 1-5 that well when it comes to that detail, but I was sort of going by Mia's "extended" autopsy report in 1-2, which was implied to have been tampered by Edgeworth. If he did that, he probably did things like that before, etc., etc.
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Re: [GK2♫][M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by Gamer2002 »

Spoiler : :
...And to be honest, I don't exactly remember 1-5 that well when it comes to that detail, but I was sort of going by Mia's "extended" autopsy report in 1-2, which was implied to have been tampered by Edgeworth. If he did that, he probably did things like that before, etc., etc.
Well, that bit in 1-5 was one of those series own retcons to make Edgeworth more sympathetic by claiming he had a line he didn't cross.
And you still can defend that autopsy report from 1-2 saying that he realized contradiction with the written Maya's name and demanded to double check if there really was literally immediate death.
And, pretty much, his autopsy report WAS correct. Mia was able to say three words before dying.
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Re: [GK2♫][M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by DWaM »

Spoiler : :
Well, there's a difference in saying three words and claiming she managed to live literally MINUTES after being hit over the head... :/
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Re: [GK2♫][M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by mAc Chaos »

There was one question I had while I played:
Spoiler : Phoenix :
Why didn't Phoenix just have Pearl channel Maya and ask her what happened? Or for forgiveness, etc? I know he was grieving, but you'd think he would at least try since he was so hung up on it.
The wolf knows what the ill heart thinks.
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Re: [GK2♫][M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by DWaM »

Spoiler : :
It's not that the idea never crossed his mind. It's just that he wasn't prepared to see Pearls (since she considered Nick Maya's "protector", he figured she blamed him and wouldn't agree to do it), much less Maya (the person he failed).
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Re: [GK2♫][M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by Lind »

Why is it that every successive post makes this sound even more like something I would hate, and yet, still somehow makes me want to play it more?
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Re: [GK2♫][M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by mAc Chaos »

Gamer2002 wrote:
Spoiler : :
Well, for me Kristoph saying "but Mr. Engarde should be grateful and so Mr. Walker" clearly meant that Matt won and Phoenix ran from court before Not Guilty verdict and exact same thing happened later on with Walker. But maybe I've read too much into it.
That was actually what I thought too. But it seemed to contradict other stuff so I was trying to make sense of it.
Spoiler : fire :
When Phoenix said he saw that fire somewhere else, that he saw in Kristoph's eyes, who was he referring to? Himself?
The wolf knows what the ill heart thinks.
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Re: [GK2♫][M][CE] Cascade Theater ●

Post by DWaM »

@Lind:
From seeing your preferences on things like these, I somehow doubt you'd like it. XP

@mAc:
Spoiler : :
Yeah, he was referring to himself.

Although, I intentionally left it a bit more ambiguous so one could think of two other possible candidates...
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