Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (Voting Time!)

[enigma]

I wasn't sure where exactly to put this, so if a mod could move it to the right subforum?

Basically, we discuss/theorise on various Manga, Anime, Video Games, VNs, etc. Umineko Style.
And by that I mean we'll be doing this under the pretense that the supernatural, etc. is false and that it can be explained with human tricks. Basically, how can the events of X be explained with human tricks?

Each month I'll choose a new topic which will be displayed here.

THIS WEEK'S TOPIC:

Ace Attorney!
Without spirit channeling, ghosts and magic items (bracelets/magatamas) can the events of AA be explained? How did Nick know X? How could Apollo tell X? Why did X (Maya Vs. Misty Vs. Godot, for example) happen?
What is your theory?

Rules for using Red/Blue:
Red= Definite truth as shown by the subject. (Something that cannot be refuted and is definitely true.)
Blue=Theory

~Enigma's Five Rules to Pierce Theories!~

Each and every one of these rules can be used as a red to shoot down a theory.

1.All theories must be serious. This means that the theory is not a joke theory or a theory that relies on memes or other nonsense. (Eg. Small bombs theories)

2.The theories must be plausible or at least possible within the topic's universe.

3.There must be a clear answer in the explanation. Use of mechanisms such as unknown trick X, unknown group X and unknown person X are forbidden./color]

4.Any culprit within a theory must be a character that is canon to that series whether they be shown or not. Hinted at characters or characters which exist by the word of the creator of that universe are allowed. Fan created characters are not allowed.

5.All theories must be presented with clear logic leading to them. In simpler terms, theories without explanation are not allowed.

[kwando1313]

Small bombs. /thread

[enigma]

Really? That old meme. =_='
Alright, what exactly are you claiming the small bombs did?

[DeeYo]

Small bombs are responsible for every murder in the series. In every case, the autopsy report was forged. There is a mastermind behind the events of AA1-5 (and AAI1-2), who executed every single murder and pinned the blame on random people.
The reason there is usually so little data on the victims indicate that each of them was an undercover agent working to uncover the criminal mastermind's ring, but failed miserably.

[enigma]

We see Romein Letouse's body in Apollo Justice. He had been shot.
We see Mia's body. It had been beaten in the head with a blunt object.
We see Misty Feys body. It had been stabbed.
We see Turner Greys corpse. It had been stabbed.
And since, at least in Umineko and that's what were using for a discussion base here, Knox and VanDine can be used as red:
The crime cannot be solved with clues that are not presented.
Mafias and secret organizations aren't allowed.
There must only be one culprit.
VanDines 2nd: No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.

Also, questions for your theory:
Who is this mastermind?/Whodunnit?
What is their motive?/Whydunnit?
How did they get these small bombs in place?/Howdunnit?

[DeeYo]

We see Romein Letouse's body in Apollo Justice. He had been shot.
We see Mia's body. It had been beaten in the head with a blunt object.
We see Misty Feys body. It had been stabbed.
We see Turner Greys corpse. It had been stabbed.
Makeup had been applied on the corpses to make the player believe this was the cause of death.
And since, at least in Umineko and that's what were using for a discussion base here, Knox and VanDine can be used as red:
The crime cannot be solved with clues that are not presented.
The crime was never meant to be solved.
Mafias and secret organizations aren't allowed.
So, it is not a secret organization. It is a non-mafia elimination ring disguised as a well-known international corporation.
There must only be one culprit.
And that is the mastermind.
VanDines 2nd: No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.
All the deceptions in the theory are placed by the criminal.

Also, questions for your theory:
Who is this mastermind?/Whodunnit?
The mastermind's identity is unknown, but I'm guessing Maya Fey.
What is their motive?/Whydunnit?
Their motive is to prevent the undercover agents, the victims of the cases, from uncovering the shady half of their organization.
How did they get these small bombs in place?/Howdunnit?
They are remotely detonated small bombs that were inserted into the victim's stomach and heart area when they were sleeping.

[eighthbit]

All instances of spirits being channeled are just an illusion created by Phoenix himself!

[Blackrune]

Godot's mask was rigged all along. There never was a channeled Dahlia, it was the secret program in his mask activating, causing a false vision. This was all part of a greater scheme.

Psyche locks are merely a metaphor for Nick's superior interrogation skills. There exists no instance that couldn't have been the result of Phoenix asking the right questions and being observant. This is also clear proof that Nick isn't the detective. Gumshoe is the actual detective.

[enigma]

Makeup had been applied on the corpses to make the player believe this was the cause of death.
There is no makeup that could hide the damage to someone who was killed by the explosion of small bombs.

The crime cannot be solved with clues that are not presented.
The crime was never meant to be solved.
The crime has to be possible to solve.

VanDines 2nd: No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.
All the deceptions in the theory are placed by the criminal.
Your theory requires a whole organisation or at least the police force to tamper with autopsy reports etc.

Who is this mastermind?/Whodunnit?
The mastermind's identity is unknown, but I'm guessing Maya Fey.
Allow me to speak, in that case what is this organization she supposedly controls?

What is their motive?/Whydunnit?
Their motive is to prevent the undercover agents, the victims of the cases, from uncovering the shady half of their organization.
VanDines 19th: The motives for all crimes in detective stories should be personal. International plottings and war politics belong in a different category of fiction — in secret-service tales, for instance. But a murder story must be kept gemütlich, so to speak. It must reflect the reader's everyday experiences, and give him a certain outlet for his own repressed desires and emotions.

Please provide evidence for your reasoning/clues.

All instances of spirits being channeled are just an illusion created by Phoenix himself!

I like this theory a lot, however...
Edgeworth is the detective in 3-5.
In 3-5 Edgeworth uses the magatama and witnesses psychelocks.
(If I remember how it goes in Umineko, anything witnessed by the detective can be trusted, right?/ Is actually witnessed.)

Godot's mask was rigged all along. There never was a channeled Dahlia, it was the secret program in his mask activating, causing a false vision. This was all part of a greater scheme.

Psyche locks are merely a metaphor for Nick's superior interrogation skills. There exists no instance that couldn't have been the result of Phoenix asking the right questions and being observant. This is also clear proof that Nick isn't the detective. Gumshoe is the actual detective.

Knox's 4th: It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.<-A secret program within the mask would count as hard to understand scientific devices, would it not?
From now on, green counts as a red truth through interpretation. AKA. something that is the absolute truth assuming that Umineko's interpretation of it is correct or that it is a truth that is shown by the evidence of all other examples of this work including Umineko.
The detective is either the protagonist or someone who has been declared the detective in red.
The detective is the person who sollves the crime within the actual story (not including tea parties/epilogues.)
From the above truths, Phoenix Wright is the detective.

[DeeYo]

Makeup had been applied on the corpses to make the player believe this was the cause of death.
There is no makeup that could hide the damage to someone who was killed by the explosion of small bombs.
Well, they could have been REALLY small bombs.
The crime cannot be solved with clues that are not presented.
The crime was never meant to be solved.
The crime has to be possible to solve.
The clue was presented in Umineko no Naku Koro ni. The statement does not say that the clue has to be presented in the appropriate game.
VanDines 2nd: No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.
All the deceptions in the theory are placed by the criminal.
Your theory requires a whole organisation or at least the police force to tamper with autopsy reports etc.
Maya Fey swapped all the autopsy reports in the game with her homemade, modified ones. One person is needed for this.

Who is this mastermind?/Whodunnit?
The mastermind's identity is unknown, but I'm guessing Maya Fey.
Allow me to speak, in that case what is this organization she supposedly controls?
Capcom, Bluecorp or the police force.

What is their motive?/Whydunnit?
Their motive is to prevent the undercover agents, the victims of the cases, from uncovering the shady half of their organization.
VanDines 19th: The motives for all crimes in detective stories should be personal. International plottings and war politics belong in a different category of fiction — in secret-service tales, for instance. But a murder story must be kept gemütlich, so to speak. It must reflect the reader's everyday experiences, and give him a certain outlet for his own repressed desires and emotions.
Maya Fey swore revenge against the leader of this undercover agency, and proceeded to kill off all its members.

Please provide evidence for your reasoning/clues.
The lack of evidence proves that this solution was never meant to be found, and therefore must be the ultimate solution. non sequiturs are fun yay

[enigma]

Makeup had been applied on the corpses to make the player believe this was the cause of death.
There is no makeup that could hide the damage to someone who was killed by the explosion of small bombs.
Well, they could have been REALLY small bombs.
The crime cannot be solved with clues that are not presented.
The crime was never meant to be solved.
The crime has to be possible to solve.
The clue was presented in Umineko no Naku Koro ni. The statement does not say that the clue has to be presented in the appropriate game.
This truth is applied to all mystery's. All mystery's must be possible to solve. No matter what it is.

VanDines 2nd: No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.
All the deceptions in the theory are placed by the criminal.
Your theory requires a whole organisation or at least the police force to tamper with autopsy reports etc.
Maya Fey swapped all the autopsy reports in the game with her homemade, modified ones. One person is needed for this.
Oh really? In that case let me propose this:
The switch would have been obvious to the police, the court, etc.
Also,
The autopsy report is usually presented by the prosecutor or the detective.
How does she switch the reports so that the detective/prosecutor not only has it, but is fooled by it?

Who is this mastermind?/Whodunnit?
The mastermind's identity is unknown, but I'm guessing Maya Fey.
Allow me to speak, in that case what is this organization she supposedly controls?
Capcom, Bluecorp or the police force.
How does she have power over Bluecorp or the Police Force? Explain how this is possible.
However, because I'm nice I'll fix your theory for you:
Maya Fey is the head of Kurain. In the third game it is stated that Kurain has connections to higher up people/organisations like the police. Kurain controls the police force or even the government!


What is their motive?/Whydunnit?
Their motive is to prevent the undercover agents, the victims of the cases, from uncovering the shady half of their organization.
VanDines 19th: The motives for all crimes in detective stories should be personal. International plottings and war politics belong in a different category of fiction — in secret-service tales, for instance. But a murder story must be kept gemütlich, so to speak. It must reflect the reader's everyday experiences, and give him a certain outlet for his own repressed desires and emotions.
Maya Fey swore revenge against the leader of this undercover agency, and proceeded to kill off all its members.
Okay, that's a massive departure from the original motive. Why is she swearing revenge against her own organization? Or, if I'm reading it wrong, what exactly is her motive for revenge?

Please provide evidence for your reasoning/clues.
The lack of evidence proves that this solution was never meant to be found, and therefore must be the ultimate solution.
The mystery has to be possible to solve.

[DeeYo]

Makeup had been applied on the corpses to make the player believe this was the cause of death.
There is no makeup that could hide the damage to someone who was killed by the explosion of small bombs.
Well, they could have been REALLY small bombs.
The crime cannot be solved with clues that are not presented.
The crime was never meant to be solved.
The crime has to be possible to solve.
The clue was presented in Umineko no Naku Koro ni. The statement does not say that the clue has to be presented in the appropriate game.
This truth is applied to all mystery's. All mystery's must be possible to solve. No matter what it is.
Since I solved it, it is possible to solve.

VanDines 2nd: No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.
All the deceptions in the theory are placed by the criminal.
Your theory requires a whole organisation or at least the police force to tamper with autopsy reports etc.
Maya Fey swapped all the autopsy reports in the game with her homemade, modified ones. One person is needed for this.
Oh really? In that case let me propose this:
The switch would have been obvious to the police, the court, etc.
Incompetent police.
Also,
The autopsy report is usually presented by the prosecutor or the detective.
How does she switch the reports so that the detective/prosecutor not only has it, but is fooled by it?
Although we thought Maya was being useless at the defense bench, what she is really doing is chanelling the homemade autopsy report, then going over to the prosecution's bench. The Judge is senile, so he can't notice it; the gallery have their view blocked, and the prosecution and defense benches are blocking the lawyer's view.

Who is this mastermind?/Whodunnit?
The mastermind's identity is unknown, but I'm guessing Maya Fey.
Allow me to speak, in that case what is this organization she supposedly controls?
Capcom, Bluecorp or the police force.
How does she have power over Bluecorp or the Police Force? Explain how this is possible.
However, because I'm nice I'll fix your theory for you:
Maya Fey is the head of Kurain. In the third game it is stated that Kurain has connections to higher up people/organisations like the police. Kurain controls the police force or even the government!


What is their motive?/Whydunnit?
Their motive is to prevent the undercover agents, the victims of the cases, from uncovering the shady half of their organization.
VanDines 19th: The motives for all crimes in detective stories should be personal. International plottings and war politics belong in a different category of fiction — in secret-service tales, for instance. But a murder story must be kept gemütlich, so to speak. It must reflect the reader's everyday experiences, and give him a certain outlet for his own repressed desires and emotions.
Maya Fey swore revenge against the leader of this undercover agency (those who are fighting against the shady organization), and proceeded to kill off all its members.
Okay, that's a massive departure from the original motive. Why is she swearing revenge against her own organization? Or, if I'm reading it wrong, what exactly is her motive for revenge?
Motive does not matter. What matters is the evidence.
But you don't have any of that, either!
Lack of evidence. Sue me.

Please provide evidence for your reasoning/clues.
The lack of evidence proves that this solution was never meant to be found, and therefore must be the ultimate solution.
The mystery has to be possible to solve.
I solved it, so it is possible.

[DWaM]

The channeling does not, and does not have to exist for the Phoenix Wright story to make sense.

Maya faked her channeling with Mia by applying make-up, which would have been most likely allowed in detention (in bot 1-2 and 2-2), because we've seen over the years that detentionees can pretty much have all sorts of crap smuggled in. And Nick was decieved, and dumb enough to buy the act. (And the, uh... "chest change" isn't really a problem if that's how it actually is for Maya.)

2-2 can be considered a hint that the entire Kurain "tradition" is a load, considering that she "failed to summon" Mini. In reality, she just couldn't do it, and the murder ended up being the perfect cover for it. Because of Ini's disguise, the illusion that the host's appearance changes while a person is channeled was pushed even further.

In 3-5, Misty isn't channeling Dahlia, she's just insane - possibly developing multiple personality disorder after her disappearance, creating "Dahlia" that will try and kill Maya. Maya, seeing her mother being killed in front of her own eyes, while realizing that her behavior and looks are similar to those of a channeling, has also a breakdown of sorts, trying to imitate and prove to herself that she isn't a fraud - she pretends to be Dahlia all through the trial as she pretends to be Iris. So, basically, it's Maya pretending to be Dahlia, pretending to be Iris.

The magatama is not a problem if there isn't an actual detective in the story (ala EP1 of Umineko or EP7's tea party). The fact that Nick sees the Psyche-Locks, and by following Knox's 2nd, is impossible, and thus, it's impossible for him to be the detective. The way around Knox's 2nd would be if it was just presented as a story that Nick thought up in his head. Hence, he does not have the objective view.

[enigma]

Let me sum up the major remaining argument against your rebuttals.
The mystery can not be solved with clues that have not been presented.
Alternatively,You must have evidence to back up your solution.
The mystery must be possible to solve.

You may have "solved it", but you can't get past this red. You'll need evideeeeeeeeeeeeeeence!!!

The channeling does not, and does not have to exist for the Phoenix Wright story to make sense.

Maya faked her channeling with Mia by applying make-up, which would have been most likely allowed in detention (in bot 1-2 and 2-2), because we've seen over the years that detentionees can pretty much have all sorts of crap smuggled in. And Nick was decieved, and dumb enough to buy the act. (And the, uh... "chest change" isn't really a problem if that's how it actually is for Maya.)

2-2 can be considered a hint that the entire Kurain "tradition" is a load, considering that she "failed to summon" Mini. In reality, she just couldn't do it, and the murder ended up being the perfect cover for it. Because of Ini's disguise, the illusion that the host's appearance changes while a person is channeled was pushed even further.

In 3-5, Misty isn't channeling Dahlia, she's just insane - possibly developing multiple personality disorder after her disappearance, creating "Dahlia" that will try and kill Maya. Maya, seeing her mother being killed in front of her own eyes, while realizing that her behavior and looks are similar to those of a channeling, has also a breakdown of sorts, trying to imitate and prove to herself that she isn't a fraud - she pretends to be Dahlia all through the trial as she pretends to be Iris. So, basically, it's Maya pretending to be Dahlia, pretending to be Iris.

The magatama is not a problem if there isn't an actual detective in the story (ala EP1 of Umineko or EP7's tea party). The fact that Nick sees the Psyche-Locks, and by following Knox's 2nd, is impossible, and thus, it's impossible for him to be the detective. The way around Knox's 2nd would be if it was just presented as a story that Nick thought up in his head. Hence, he does not have the objective view.

Damn... I've been waiting to see what you come up with and... Geez. I can't really think of anything except, well...
There is no proof/foreshadowing that Maya's insane/ has DID or something!

Don't forget guys, this isn't a game it's a discussion! Anyone can use blues, reds and *NEW* green! Feel free to take shots at others theories while presenting your own.

[DeeYo]

Let me sum up the major remaining argument against your rebuttals.
The mystery can not be solved with clues that have not been presented.
Alternatively,You must have evidence to back up your solution.
The mystery must be possible to solve.

You may have "solved it", but you can't get past this red. You'll need evideeeeeeeeeeeeeeence!!!

Someone help me! The small bombs theory must prevail!