Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (Voting Time!)

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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by eighthbit »

Then what would you suggest?
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by enigma »

I've tried to be as fair and clear as I can with the discussion rules but if clarification on any of them is needed please tell me.
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by DeeYo »

Kwando's first post seems to be an even bigger trollsmanship now that the rules have been added.
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by kwando1313 »

Yay~

But alas, that now comes to an end.
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by Spongesonic »

At last. No more small bombs.

Let's celebrate!
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by kwando1313 »

Time for me to unveil my medium bombs theoryupupupupupu~
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by DeeYo »

Kuter Exxer is still valid
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by enigma »

Rule 4
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by DeeYo »

I miss the days when there were no rules...*sob*
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by eighthbit »

Kuter Exxer is actually Phoenix Wright.
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by enigma »

The rules became necessary because people were taking the joke theories too far and it was clogging real discussion. I didn't want to have to force any on you but two specific people were ruining it for proper theories.

As far, the surviving theories are:
Eightbits Theory- Illusionary Channeling
Runes theory-Hypothetical Locks and the rigged mask
DWaMs theory-
Spoiler : Long, hard to summarize theory :
DWaM wrote:The channeling does not, and does not have to exist for the Phoenix Wright story to make sense.

Maya faked her channeling with Mia by applying make-up, which would have been most likely allowed in detention (in bot 1-2 and 2-2), because we've seen over the years that detentionees can pretty much have all sorts of crap smuggled in. And Nick was decieved, and dumb enough to buy the act. (And the, uh... "chest change" isn't really a problem if that's how it actually is for Maya.)

2-2 can be considered a hint that the entire Kurain "tradition" is a load, considering that she "failed to summon" Mini. In reality, she just couldn't do it, and the murder ended up being the perfect cover for it. Because of Ini's disguise, the illusion that the host's appearance changes while a person is channeled was pushed even further.

In 3-5, Misty isn't channeling Dahlia, she's just insane - possibly developing multiple personality disorder after her disappearance, creating "Dahlia" that will try and kill Maya. Maya, seeing her mother being killed in front of her own eyes, while realizing that her behavior and looks are similar to those of a channeling, has also a breakdown of sorts, trying to imitate and prove to herself that she isn't a fraud - she pretends to be Dahlia all through the trial as she pretends to be Iris. So, basically, it's Maya pretending to be Dahlia, pretending to be Iris.

The magatama is not a problem if there isn't an actual detective in the story (ala EP1 of Umineko or EP7's tea party). The fact that Nick sees the Psyche-Locks, and by following
Knox's 2nd, is impossible, and thus, it's impossible for him to be the detective. The way around Knox's 2nd would be if it was just presented as a story that Nick thought up in his head. Hence, he does not have the objective view.
DWaM wrote:I'll get the easy ones out of the way, then.

Apollo's bracelet isn't magic. It is explained how it works, and for all we know, in the future, it could be made of a material that works on such basis. The power of perception in the Gramyre family is genetic, so it's not a stretch that, combined with the bracelet, Apollo has the power that he has.

The photo in 2-2 is, as I've explained, just makeup on Maya's part (as I've explained, it's not a stretch to assume that she was allowed to have it in the detention center, considering what other clients had).

It is never expicitly said that they saw Dahlia's ghost. From their prespective, they ASSUMED she left Maya's body.

Now, as for Pearl's channeling, there are several explanations:

1. There is someone in the Kurain who is in on the scam and helped out Maya by pretending to be Pearl channeling Mia. I don't believe we ever explicity saw Peral in the process of channeling, after all.

2. Mia did not die in 2-2, she, in fact, somehow faked her death, and helped out Nick by disguising herself as Pearl channeling herself.

3. Since we established Nick does not have an objective view, there is a possibility the entire thing is in his head - he imagines Mia talking to him through Pearls because he is convinced channeling is real and locks the illusion in himself by doing so.
If I missed any, please tell me.
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by kwando1313 »

ahaha.wav

Well, that's what you get for not including rules in the first place. >_>

Anywho, let me try and shoot some of these theories down... Going a bit light, buuuuuuut, I don't have much to work with, you see~

@DWaM: Since you were so adamant on using Knox against me~
Knox's 8th! It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. There is no such evidence for makeup to be used in any trial for spirit channeling! Also, explain 3-3, where Mia is channeled right in front of Nick.
The detective is impartial. Phoenix Wright is the playable character, and thus is the detective for our intents and purposes, and he identified Mia's body as being dead. Therefore, Mia MUST be dead.
DWaM wrote:1. There is someone in the Kurain who is in on the scam and helped out Maya by pretending to be Pearl channeling Mia. I don't believe we ever explicity saw Peral in the process of channeling, after all.
Van Dine's 13th. No secret societies are allowed. As shown in Umineko, more than 3 is an organization, therefore, Mystery Person X + Maya + Pearl = an organization.

@eighthbit:
The data transfer in the second game's was achieved through the use of a cellphone. The reason why Maya didn't use this cellphone was her being unconscious. The reason for it not being found was due to Maya leaving it at the Big Berry Circus.
Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. We are not presented Maya's cellphone in any shape, way, or form in 2-4. There is nothing to suggest that she even /has/ a cellphone in 2-4.

No detective's proclamation has been made!
Alternatively, Edgeworth could have been under an influence that he received from Phoenix while he met him in his hospital room! As, EP2 of Umineko shows, you cannot trust the detective's perspective while they're under any influence!

Battler was never proclaimed to be the detective in EPs 2-4, yet he obviously is the detective. In addition, Knox's 8th again. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

GEEZE GAIZ STOP MAKING THEORIES WITH KNOX'S 8TH BEING BROKEN, JUST AS BAD AS MY JOKE THEORIES JEESH
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by enigma »

While I admit, it isn't a very strong theory, I have one point of rebuttal against your use of knox's 8 for the cell phone.

We see Maya's cell phone in the first game's second case, therefore we know it exists.
For a mystery to be solved, it only needs to use clues that are presented before the very end of the story.

Maya most likely still had her cell phone by the second game!
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by kwando1313 »

enigma wrote:While I admit, it isn't a very strong theory, I have one point of rebuttal against your use of knox's 8 for the cell phone.

We see Maya's cell phone in the first game's second case, therefore we know it exists.
For a mystery to be solved, it only needs to use clues that are presented before the very end of the story.

Maya most likely still had her cell phone by the second game!
Not presented in the second game. Players should be given equal knowledge and advantage for playing something which is not explicitly connected to previous games. This is shown by having a tutorial case in every game, as well as re-introducing Maya, something which would not need to be done unless they were expecting new readers to come into the story.
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Re: Subetenomono no Naku Koro Ni (When Everything Cries)

Post by enigma »

In the 5th game of Umineko, Battler uses a clue of the fourth game in his theory against Erika.

Expecting new readers to come into the story is not the same as making the story possible to solve for the new readers. It could merely mean an expected unnatural viewing pattern in some readers. For example, I played the games in order 4-AAI-3-1-2. It's possible to get the game's "truth" without reaching the hidden truth! The game is set to have the hidden truth discovered and found by readers of all of the games!
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