A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

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Kroki
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by Kroki »

I highly recommend 500-framesy cases.
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by Reverie »

Enthalpy wrote:If it's a test run for programming purposes, then what are you doing writing a 4000 frame case? You can do a programming test in a quarter of that. The only reason for writing the extra 3000 frames of dialogue is to publish a complete case, which you should be releasing for feedback, so you can improve.
Nonlinearity. It's hard to do something to that effect in 1,000, though I guess I still could do less. I initially wanted feedback, sure... I just tend to notice that people don't tend to give feedback to lesser-known authors. I'd be lying if I said I didn't want criticism, but people don't generally have a lot of time for cases unless they know from the outset that they're gonna be good.
Maybe this is just me being a coward and hating the way I write. I'll see how the "test run" turns out and... if it's good/ lenghty enough, I may publish it.
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by Enthalpy »

What do you mean by "nonlinearity" that could possibly show up in a programming test, and that could possibly require 4000 frames?
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by kwando1313 »

Kroki wrote:I highly recommend 500-framesy cases.
So deliciously 2008. Image
pls

2008 cases have aged terribly.

Just a note. Short cases aren't inherently bad or anything. It's just... A lot more difficult to tell a grand story with a short case. Granted, though, it's a lot easier to finish.

Also, if you want to do non-linearity, look at Ferdie's tricks. They'll be really useful.
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by Kroki »

Dude, the editor started lagging at around 400 frames back then.
Though to be fair it quickly grew to 400 frames parts.

Don't diss those by the way, not every case needs to be Rise from the Ashes!

Edit :
kwando1313 wrote:2008 cases have aged terribly.
So not all. :o
We are talking about two completely separate sides of the website though. \o/
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by Reverie »

Enthalpy wrote:What do you mean by "nonlinearity" that could possibly show up in a programming test, and that could possibly require 4000 frames?
...Yeah, I guess that was a little broad of a term to use.
...Now I'm stuck trying to define this.

Y'know, I'm not someone against someone else telling me straight up that something is a bad idea. Which I can tell you're trying to.

Back to the topic, by "programming," I just mean... "functional."
Nonlinearity... a bad investigation would have one very strict path that it allowed you to go through, which is not what I want. And I was going to try and let it be pretty... "open," but the difficulty there is writing it, because there's no way to know what the player has or hasn't done up to that point.
So I guess I'm just contradicting myself at this point. 'Grats, me.

Edit: Two ninjas, every time. Damn.
kwando1313 wrote: Also, if you want to do non-linearity, look at Ferdie's tricks. They'll be really useful.
I have been, actually, but thanks for the hint nonetheless.
DWaM wrote:Denouement of the Turnabout (on AAO, of which only part 1 was released - more or less abandoned. The first part had ~2500, iirc)
This is what I mean. 2,500... Well, that... Okay, Enthalpy's argument, further supported.
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by kwando1313 »

Kroki wrote:Dude, the editor started lagging at around 400 frames back then.
Though to be fair it quickly grew to 400 frames parts.

Don't diss those by the way, not every case needs to be Rise from the Ashes!

Edit :
kwando1313 wrote:2008 cases have aged terribly.
So not all. :o
No, they have. I can't think of a single case from 2008 that even compares to a good case now. But this is massively off topic and not the point of this convo.

Like I mentioned earlier, try to talk to Ferdielance about this. He's done a non-linear investigation before and he should be able to provide you with some tips.
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by Enthalpy »

Spyromed wrote:there's no way to know what the player has or hasn't done up to that point.
Actually...
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by DWaM »

On the subject of lack of feedback:

Sadly, it's not necessarily the issue with the cases themselves but the community in general - no matter what the quality of the case ultimately may be. This is my personal opinion, since part of it is from experience, but: over time, I feel like people have generally lost more and more interest in making and playing the actual cases. If you were to ask members of the community, you may be surprised at how little of them actually even know or pay attention to the released cases. The fact that the length of trials has increased over time didn't really help by any means.

I believe I explained it before sometime in the past, but the vicious paradox is essentially something like this:
- The longer cases got, the higher the quality standard was set and certain trial-makers because "go-to guys" when playing trials
- People will start to create larger and larger trials, thus taking a really long time to finish them or not finishing them at all
- Shorter trials from unknown people get sadly ignored
- Meanwhile, due to the lack of what we perceive as "quality" trials, the interest fades away and people either move onto other things, leading to the community of trialmaking to slowly fade away
- People start playing trials less and less, thus demotivating people from making them at all

Additionally, as time goes on, people that make the current community started to have less and less time for the site and thus actual trialmaking.

I wish I could say I myself am not guilty of these kinds of things, but sadly, I'm not. Over time, I myself have found a lack of general interest, and it's something that I really do regret - especially with the time and effort put into what I've already done - not to mention Unas' hard work into v6. It's a sad thing to imagine given all the effort put into it by people that make both the engine and the cases, but the decline is sadly there and very much visible.

...And I'm honestly not sure how to fix it. Because even with giving feedback to new authors... their mistakes are most often the same and common - and very few of them actually choose to take them to heart and try again and improve instead of just walking away from the thing altogether.
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by Reverie »

Enthalpy wrote:
Spyromed wrote:there's no way to know what the player has or hasn't done up to that point.
Actually...
Mkay, not completely in the literal sense. It's still hard to adapt the writing around that, though. With a really non-linear/ open one (not my intention, but it's for an example), you'd have to have many variables and redirections. Let's say you examine a vase, which means nothing at that point. But you can also pick up... I don't know... a sapphire, and put it in the vase. You can also do the same with a ruby. And an emerald. And a diamond. However, once one of the jewels are picked up, the rest disappear from the investigation. You'd have to test for each of the four variables, one for each jewel, just to get the right examine coversation.
No, I don't know anybody who sporadically puts valuables inside vases, it just came to mind.
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by kwando1313 »

DWaM wrote:On the subject of lack of feedback:

Sadly, it's not necessarily the issue with the cases themselves but the community in general - no matter what the quality of the case ultimately may be. This is my personal opinion, since part of it is from experience, but: over time, I feel like people have generally lost more and more interest in making and playing the actual cases. If you were to ask members of the community, you may be surprised at how little of them actually even know or pay attention to the released cases. The fact that the length of trials has increased over time didn't really help by any means.

I believe I explained it before sometime in the past, but the vicious paradox is essentially something like this:
- The longer cases got, the higher the quality standard was set and certain trial-makers because "go-to guys" when playing trials
- People will start to create larger and larger trials, thus taking a really long time to finish them or not finishing them at all
- Shorter trials from unknown people get sadly ignored
- Meanwhile, due to the lack of what we perceive as "quality" trials, the interest fades away and people either move onto other things, leading to the community of trialmaking to slowly fade away
- People start playing trials less and less, thus demotivating people from making them at all

Additionally, as time goes on, people that make the current community started to have less and less time for the site and thus actual trialmaking.

I wish I could say I myself am not guilty of these kinds of things, but sadly, I'm not. Over time, I myself have found a lack of general interest, and it's something that I really do regret - especially with the time and effort put into what I've already done - not to mention Unas' hard work into v6. It's a sad thing to imagine given all the effort put into it by people that make both the engine and the cases, but the decline is sadly there and very much visible.

...And I'm honestly not sure how to fix it. Because even with giving feedback to new authors... their mistakes are most often the same and common - and very few of them actually choose to take them to heart and try again and improve instead of just walking away from the thing altogether.
I know I've fell into the "only play trials by reputable people" trap.

Heck, I've even not played some trials which I think are good and should play. >_>

Granted, for me, it's more due to a lack of time to play new people's trials, and I don't want to play something that isn't good.... But... Yeah.
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by Enthalpy »

@ Spyromed: All you need is a single variable, with its value set to "sapphire," "emerald," "ruby," "diamond," or 0 depending on the current contents of the vase.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by Reverie »

...Wait.
Oh.
Because I've been making things thus far where I set things like... well, in this example...
Upon examining the ruby: "ExamineRuby=1"
Sapphire is "ExamineSapphire=1," etc.

And then "SapphireinJar=1" once the sapphire is in the vase to proceed to a frame to hide the rest of the jewels. I thought variables could only have a value of 1 or 0, so I'd been stacking up 4 frame redirects so the game has to go through pretty much a maze of "Evaluate condition" frames to get to the right scene.
...Maybe I'll give your guide an extensive look...
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Re: A Couple of Questions About Making Trials

Post by Bad Player »

Spyromed wrote:Doesn't play incomplete cases.
Hi five!


EDIT: For your gem example, I would just directly hide/display frames, rather than use variables.
(Variables can be extremely helpful and powerful, but aren't necessarily the simplest solution...)
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