So, how about that Apollo Justice.

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Bitvid64
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Re: So, how about that Apollo Justice.

Post by Bitvid64 »

enigma wrote:Idunno. PL vs PW felt like it took a few decent/interesting risks. At the very least it felt fresh and creative. And it sounds like DGS does too.

Except we probably won't ever get that one. Sooooo... yeah.
DGS?...sorry to bug into this conversation, but what does that stand for?
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Re: So, how about that Apollo Justice.

Post by enigma »

Dai Gyakuten Saiban.
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Re: So, how about that Apollo Justice.

Post by 123fendas »

You see, when I was new here on Ace Attorney Online, I played many cases, and this was when I was a super-newbie at Ace Attorney. The only Ace Attorney content I'd seen was NintendoCapriSun's let's play of Justice For All, from the beginning of case 1 to the first trial of case 2. So I didn't know anything. So, anyway, when I played a case, this weird red and white guy was the lawyer. I'd never seen him before.

Okay, so when I got more into Ace Attorney, I know who he was. Apollo Justice. And since those cases I played had Apollo Justice, I actually once said:
123fendas wrote:Yeah, I guess I really do suck... NPFW-3 was a failure, I had too many small super-objections... and I didn't have Apollo Justice in my case...
I didn't realize how many cases starred Phoenix and Mia on here. I guess you could say I was a Phoenix Wright-fanboy.

Note: I'm quitting this good trial thing. I QUIT! Or, well, I might reconvene in the future. But my writing sucks. That sums it up. I actually had a case where someone was sniped from a window... I thought that whole case was good at the time, but it was horrible. Anyway, one of my cases are in progress, however, it's a sequel to "A Bun Load of Fun Jokes". Which means the plot doesn't have to be good. Well, originally it meant that people would joke in court, and stuff. But no.

I'm playing Apollo Justice on my DS now, though. And I love it!
Spoiler : :
Sorry, I might be off-topic please don't kill me :(
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Re: So, how about that Apollo Justice.

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My thoughts on Apollo Justice? Well it's simple really. *Spoilers of Course*
It's the first game I played in the series, then I realised it wasn't the first and quit after the first case, then when I went back everything seemed so underwhelming, the game itself is great, but also so underwhelming, I mean c'mon of all the Big Bad Bosses, Damon Gant around 4 cross-examinations, Matt Engarde 2 cross-examinations, AND, a maximum penalty question with 2 parts, mess up and you lose... Godot? Well cross-examining Maya to prove that she was lying was quiet tough, it wasn't something you would want to do, however, those 4 or so cross-examinations were all fun! Then you got Kristoph, looky here m8 I'll break after 1 cross-examination and a small bit of evidence lad! Seems legit? Lolno, the guy was the easiest of all the Big Bads, and proving that he was the murderer accomplishes nothing since he's already behind bars, all that does get accomplished is getting Phoenix's badge back... wow, one game for that? Seems legit? Lolno.
The gameplay was as fun as any other AA game, the new features are fun, the characters aren't that bad, but the cases and the story, man those are horrible, have you seen all those plot holes? You can create a whole universe from all those plot-holes...
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Re: So, how about that Apollo Justice.

Post by 123fendas »

TheReaper wrote:My thoughts on Apollo Justice? Well it's simple really. *Spoilers of Course*
It's the first game I played in the series, then I realised it wasn't the first and quit after the first case, then when I went back everything seemed so underwhelming, the game itself is great, but also so underwhelming, I mean c'mon of all the Big Bad Bosses, Damon Gant around 4 cross-examinations, Matt Engarde 2 cross-examinations, AND, a maximum penalty question with 2 parts, mess up and you lose... Godot? Well cross-examining Maya to prove that she was lying was quiet tough, it wasn't something you would want to do, however, those 4 or so cross-examinations were all fun! Then you got Kristoph, looky here m8 I'll break after 1 cross-examination and a small bit of evidence lad! Seems legit? Lolno, the guy was the easiest of all the Big Bads, and proving that he was the murderer accomplishes nothing since he's already behind bars, all that does get accomplished is getting Phoenix's badge back... wow, one game for that? Seems legit? Lolno.
The gameplay was as fun as any other AA game, the new features are fun, the characters aren't that bad, but the cases and the story, man those are horrible, have you seen all those plot holes? You can create a whole universe from all those plot-holes...
Spoiler : An actual spoiler for AJ :
Of course I've read the headscratchers, but I only found one plothole while playing the game... And that was "Who drove Meraktis' car that night? Apollo proved the reason Pal Meraktis didn't drive his car was because the exhaust pipe was stuffed with Trucy's panties. But Phoenix got hit by that car anyway. So, who drove it? This was never explained, for some reason." I wrote this on tvtropes
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Re: So, how about that Apollo Justice.

Post by FeenietheWeenie »

I've only gotten into ace attorney recently, and I played all the games in one continuing string over the summer. So they're all fresh in my mind and fairly easy to compare.

You know, I gotta be honest, I'm still in that "rose-colored-glasses" phase of being a fan of this series, so even things I don't like, I still pretty much like.

I thought Apollo Justice was pretty good. I really liked case 3, (which is apparently a pretty uncommon reaction. People seem to hate that one? I liked the Big Berry Circus one, though, to be fair, so I guess not a lot phases me.) and generally I liked the game and the new characters.

However..... I guess I have to say, I really don't like what they did to Phoenix in this game. I don't even mind Hobonick as a thing, it's just his personality. He seems SO OOC for the entire game, it's like he's not the same character at all. Phoenix, who was for so many years idealistic and witty and frequently surprised by things was nothing like that at all. I understand that going through the fall from grace he had would change you, but it just.... Didn't seem like Phoenix. And as much as I'm glad to have him back in Dual Destinies (and as much as I'm excited for him in AA6), the way they portrayed his character in Apollo Justice is a very difficult thing to have him bounce back from as a character. He was better in Dual Destinies, but there's still something that just seems to never have been recaptured. That's why the original trilogy will always be my favorite.

That said, I really like Trucy and Klavier and I LOOOOOVE Apollo. :larry:
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Re: So, how about that Apollo Justice.

Post by 123fendas »

Yes, Phoenix in AJ is also a "headscratcher".

I hate that they "assassinated his character", they made him
Spoiler : Spoiler for AJ :
forge that piece of evidence in the first case, and it even made Apollo punch him. But since he needed a job, he went to Wright Talent Agency anyway. Like the page on tvtropes said, in the franchise where you're supposed to find the truth by pointing at people in court, it's really sad of the game developers to have him forge a piece of evidence.
But then again, people like Edgeworth even if he acted as a defense attorney one time. My little theory is; since there's a 4 month gap between Bridge to the Turnabout and AAI, I think Edgeworth turned himself in.
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Re: So, how about that Apollo Justice.

Post by FeenietheWeenie »

YES! I thought the whole point of a larger fraction of Apollo Justice's plot (and specifically the last case) was supposed to be the player proving that Phoenix Wright really wasn't the "forgin' attorney" that everyone thought he was. And so the developers decide a good thing to make him do is.... forge evidence.
Yep. So logical of them.
Brilliant. (This is all dripping with sarcasm, in case it's not clear.)
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Re: So, how about that Apollo Justice.

Post by Bad Player »

123fendas wrote:
Spoiler : An actual spoiler for AJ :
Of course I've read the headscratchers, but I only found one plothole while playing the game... And that was "Who drove Meraktis' car that night? Apollo proved the reason Pal Meraktis didn't drive his car was because the exhaust pipe was stuffed with Trucy's panties. But Phoenix got hit by that car anyway. So, who drove it? This was never explained, for some reason." I wrote this on tvtropes
It was Pal Meraktis. Before all the murder-stuff went down. Go replay Stickler's cross-examination.
FeenietheWeenie wrote:YES! I thought the whole point of a larger fraction of Apollo Justice's plot (and specifically the last case) was supposed to be the player proving that Phoenix Wright really wasn't the "forgin' attorney" that everyone thought he was. And so the developers decide a good thing to make him do is.... forge evidence.
Yep. So logical of them.
Brilliant. (This is all dripping with sarcasm, in case it's not clear.)
No, the whole point of Apollo Justice's plot was to deal with moral gray zones. It's not just Phoenix--every defendant in the game is guilty of some crime. Should you still be defending them?

Even though Phoenix wasn't a murderer, he had to forge evidence to prove it--is that okay?

Even though he 'forged' the evidence, he didn't make evidence up; he simply created a replica of evidence that he knew existed, but that the court couldn't obtain--does that make it better?

This was a stepping stone in clearing his name about the original forgery; does that make it okay?

The other thing it's supposed to do is show how much Phoenix has changed over 7 years. No, the Phoenix of the original trilogy would never think of doing something like that. But look at him now. His life is in shambles. He's spent 7 years like this. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

So no, there's a lot more to it than "hurr durr forging stuff to prove he didn't forge stuff"
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Re: So, how about that Apollo Justice.

Post by 123fendas »

Bad Player wrote:
123fendas wrote:
Spoiler : An actual spoiler for AJ :
Of course I've read the headscratchers, but I only found one plothole while playing the game... And that was "Who drove Meraktis' car that night? Apollo proved the reason Pal Meraktis didn't drive his car was because the exhaust pipe was stuffed with Trucy's panties. But Phoenix got hit by that car anyway. So, who drove it? This was never explained, for some reason." I wrote this on tvtropes
It was Pal Meraktis. Before all the murder-stuff went down. Go replay Stickler's cross-examination.
Oh. Thank you so much for pointing that out!
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Apollo Justice Rant

Post by TheReaper »

I know this should probably be in the "Annoyed about something? Rant!" Topic, but this seemed like a bit too long to put into a topic, plus I feel like it would be harder to discuss on an existing topic, so I created me own topic just to rant about the most ranted about game in the series... Apollo Justice

Anyway, I would start by saying that Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney is by no means a bad game, I actually think it's pretty good if you can look past the plot holes and contradictions it's a pretty fun game, but I'm not here to actually rant about the game itself, but more what it stands for and what it did to Ace Attorney, now this may seem unoriginal, but I've never seen anyone able to correctly explain why they think Apollo Justice ruined the plot or the canon, or even the characters, but I think I may be able to.

So, AJ:AA, fun game, but god damn, it practically ruined the Ace Attorney canon, I may be a bit too nice towards the game as it is the first Ace Attorney game I ever played and it got me into one of the greatest video game franchises of all time, but when I decided to actually play through the whole series, I realised that this game is a terrible thing for Ace Attorney, not only did it ruin the titular character from the first trilogy by making him an annoying, too serious, laid back, hobo lookin', poker playing/cheating, revenge fueled, controlling, FALSE EVIDENCE CREATING, LYING, JERK!!!!!! But that's just my opinion.
GS4 also ruined what could've happened after AA:T&T, there were so many possibilities now that Phoenix Wright was a legend among Defense Attorneys, he knew the truth about his past with Iris, that opened up a whole new possibility of new relationships with characters, and new cases, the fact that Phoenix did not need the help of Mia anymore could have made for a lot more drama in the later games, and all that was ruined by AJ:AA which only kept like 3 characters from the past games, the Judge, who had the biggest part of the three, Winston Payne, who had a pretty fun part, and Gumshoe, who was more of an awkward cameo than anything else, you could argue that since Ema is there she counts as a cameo, but she was only added with Rise from the Ashes around the same time as Apollo Justice's release, and her character was so changed that it kinda ruined her. And the game would be fine if it weren't for the fact that Phoenix, who is I guess the 5th past games character, is in the game, Hobonix is terrible, I already insulted him, but not only did he steal the spotlight from a fun character who's name appears on the title of the game, but the fact that he was so changed made you wish that he wasn't called Phoenix Wright, but instead an ex-attorney who got disbarred for presenting false evidence and doing anything to get revenge against the one who gave him that false evidence, and that would be a great idea for a game, maybe add a few cameos from old characters, and you keep the fans happy while not ruining their favorite character, but NOOO, they HAD to include Phoenix Wright as the worst character in the universe... he'd be great if he weren't phoenix. And you know what, if that was my only issue, I could tolerate the game, but NOOOOOOOO, they HAD to remove ALL mention of any past characters, I mean it is inferred that Maya is still in touch with Phoenix, but she isn't really referred to in person apart from maybe one reference which is POSSIBILY talking about her, anyway, ALL past characters other than Maya aren't mentioned, no Edgeworth, no Godot, who technically made Phoenix a Legend, NOT one mention of past characters is there apart from Maya, only to replace all those characters with a new cast of MAGICIANS... yeah... Zak is an ass, even Valant, who acts like an ass, is nicer. And the BIG BAD, Kristoph Gavin, oh god... I didn't mind the first 3 cases of the game, I thought they were kinda fun if you look past the plot holes, but god, how anti climactic, they build up this awesome final case with all this investigating in the past, and the present, all to just end with perceiving ONE lie, presenting one piece of evidence, then waiting like 30 minutes for Klavier to convict his brother by repeating the same long lines of texts over and over again, just in a different manner, I mean we had von Karma, a truly evil prosecutor who would do anything to win, Damon Gant, a monster to take down with almost a whole trial dedicated to defeating him, Matt Engarde, who we had to defeat by presenting a piece of evidence to the right person, you screw that up and you redo the whole trial if you didn't save, and of course Godot, whom we had to take down by proving that our faithful friend Maya was lying through 4 cross-examinations, and then we have Kristoph, "You perceived my twitch, and you present unpresentable evidence... LOL, WAIT, there's a jury!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOO" :calisto: How lame is that, it's obvious that Kristoph was a weak psycho who was very anti-climactic and killed for stupid reasons in stupid ways, and we still can't be 100% sure that he really was the killer, it's likely, but the lack of confession made that seem a bit weird, and lets not forget, that Phoenix shouldn't have gotten disbarred, I mean von Karma got only a penalty for faulty evidence, but Phoenix presents ONE piece of falsified evidence without any proof that he made it himself, except for someone who NEVER met with the one who asked for it, AND a prosecutor who knew too much about the fake evidence, there should've been more to it than just getting disbarred, he should have simply gotten a penalty.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on Apollo Justice's stupid plot and ruined canon, I'll probably rant a bit about Dual Destinies next, which I don't hate as much because I'm considering every game after T&T as non-canon and part of a different canon, like marvel comics' ton of universes.
If you have any thoughts on why I'm wrong, or why you disagree with me, I'd be happy to hear it.
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Re: Apollo Justice Rant

Post by Bad Player »

TheReaper wrote:the most ranted about game in the series... Apollo Justice
Actually at this point, I think it might be DD.
too serious
...What.
-snip-
No, AJ didn't ruin the series. Not by a long shot. (The big issue is having both AJ and DD. Just one would be fine, but having both has created a mess. But I'll get to all this soon.)

Ftr, the people you're looking to blame are the bigwigs at Capcom. They're the ones who wanted Takumi to make another game. Phoenix's story was over (it was), so Takumi wanted to start fresh with a new protagonist and a new cast, which I think was the right move. But the bigwigs at Capcom wouldn't allow another Ace Attorney game without Phoenix in it, which is why he became the best character in the franchise what he was in AJ. AJ was also made at the same time reforms in Japan introduced juries to what had been a bench trial system, and so the bigwigs in Japan wanted the plot of AJ to include the addition of juries to the judicial system--which is why the final case resolved in the way it did.

However, while these decisions may have pulled back AJ as a game, they really didn't do much harm to the series. As I already said, Phoenix's story was over. The web of Phoenix and the Feys (and the von Karmas and what-have-you) had been built up and fully resolved over three games. They could have continued with Phoenix, but as you add in more characters, events, and retconned backstories, the game just gets more bloated with each incarnation, and it was already getting close to its limit. (Just look at GK2.) Instead they started fresh, with a new protagonist, and an almost entirely new cast of characters, which would give the franchise to grow and explore other character arcs. Yes, the game "Apollo Justice" centered a bit too much on Phoenix as opposed to the character that the game was named after. But, while T&T was the resolution of Phoenix's story, AJ was then passing the baton the Nick to Apollo, and meant that the series could then focus basically on Apollo, his character, and his story arc.

But unfortunately, as we all know, that's not what happened. And that is the biggest issue with the franchise.

DD brings Phoenix back as an attorney, and tries to center around him (while also introducing Athena and keeping Apollo around). It's very much like a continuation of the original trilogy. Heck, it ignores pretty much every single plot element from AJ except the existence of Polly, Trucy, and Klavier (and it only barely doesn't ignore the existence of Trucy and Klavier). While a continuation of the original trilogy isn't problematic on its own, it doesn't work well after a game like AJ. And similarly, while taking the series in a different direction like AJ did is okay, it doesn't work when followed by DD.

It's almost kind of like the multiple Marvel universes that you mentioned at the end. There's World A, where Phoenix gets completely cut out and Apollo gets full center stage. Then there's World B, where Phoenix just keeps on lawyering forever. And going to either World A or World B would be fine, but AJ tried to go to World A and then DD tried to go to World B, and so instead we ended up in World C in the middle where nobody is happy.
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Re: Apollo Justice Rant

Post by TheReaper »

I see what you mean and I understand, I agree that Phoenix's story was over, it's just that if they were to make another game they should just have completely cut him out, and I understand that it's the bigwigs at capcom who are guilty, however the thing I hate about Apollo Justice is what it represents, not the game itself, and yeah I see what you mean.

I guess a better way I could have phrased it, is that it ruined Phoenix's canon, not the series'.
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Re: Apollo Justice Rant

Post by Bad Player »

TheReaper wrote:I guess a better way I could have phrased it, is that it ruined Phoenix's canon, not the series'.
But look at how sexy he got!
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Re: Apollo Justice Rant

Post by kwando1313 »

Hobo Nick is best Nick. :'D
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