Ace Attorney 6

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SwagmaWampyr
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by SwagmaWampyr »

His chemistry with Athena is kind of the entire premise of my complaints with him existing, though
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by Lind »

Had a moment of fridge logic.
Spoiler : Rite of Turnabout :
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So apparently Maya doesn't wear a bra.
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by Nicky Boy »

Lind wrote:Had a moment of fridge logic.
Spoiler : Rite of Turnabout :
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So apparently Maya doesn't wear a bra.
Erm... Didn't Mia's... chest show that in the original trilogy?
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by Glen Elg »

I'll give my two cents about the whole game here; 'cause why not. (Prepare for a full-on text wall review.)
Spoiler : Spoilers: Everything Except the DLC Case :
Overall, this is probably my least favorite game in the series, but I did still enjoy it. I saw many things wrong, and many things right.

Small things first: localization's name pun game was pretty weak this time around. Most of it is due to most of the names being Khura'inese; it meant they had to be way less creative, and we ended up with Pees'lubn Andistan'dhin. Taifu Toneido was probably the best pun they had; I don't think the English names were too high-caliber (the Buffs were nice, though).

The plot twists are starting to get out of hand; the twins thing threw me off a bit, and the DID thing felt like a bit of a reach for a twist (though they did an amazing job of portraying it, from what I can tell).

Okay, now for story stuff. I was kinda worried about how the story was going to work out, but they pulled it off very well. The storyline actually focused on Apollo for once, and it made a lot of sense and had great themes and structure.
After his development in Case 5, Nahyuta still felt pretty unrealistic, though, and we didn't get to see a huge amount of emotion from him after he finally changed. I get that he's very relaxed, and that acting the way he did was more realistic, but the player needs to really see that development, especially with how Ace Attorney shows character development.

Smaller-scale, I think Case 2's story was pretty ridiculous; the case itself is set up well, but they tried making it high-stakes, and it didn't deliver. I didn't feel any real threat from the repossession; it felt like a dream, and not like a real story.
Dr. Reus' existence felt too far-fetched for me; maybe it's just the fact that his costume was different in style from the rest of Troupe Gramarye, but he looked like he didn't belong in the first place. I loved the actual character dynamic of Roger Retinz, though, and they brought out the contrast between him and Trucy very well.

Case 4, while I did really enjoy it, wasn't necessary; Athena and Simon weren't very involved in the rest of the game's story, so it felt way different from normal filler cases like Case 2. Yeah, Athena's there with Apollo for Case 2, but overall, she's kinda just there in the background. That's fine in itself, but Case 4 revolving around her was off-putting. It'd be an amazing Case 1 for a game with Athena as the main character.

Dhurke and Apollo's dynamic worked really well; I actually felt emotional when it came to their relationship, even if it felt a little forced. The "dragon never yields" theme was executed perfectly, and Rayfa got some great development.
Overall, the DC Act felt real, and not like a plot device, and they pulled off the stories surrounding it really well (especially when it came to Beh'leeb and Tahrust's story). I loved this game's story on the whole, and it finally revolved around Apollo completely, which really justified him as a character. (On the subject though, someone fact-check me on this: Apollo chose his own last name, right? It threw me off hearing that Jove's last name was Justice when I remembered hearing that Apollo chose it for himself.)

Last story note: I'm glad Apollo's staying in Khura'in. Next game might be more Athena-centric, and it means we're getting a nicer story arc across games. We might get some character development between games that doesn't take place during a time-skip.

Okay, gameplay stuff.

There's nothing wrong with the Divination Seance, but we didn't need it. They used four gimmicks in this game (Psyche-Locks, Perceive, Mood Matrix, and Divination Seance; I'll discuss Thought Route in a bit), and we only need one; two at the absolute most. They merged the Seance with the story super well, and the story wouldn't have worked without it, but it didn't improve the gameplay aspect at all. I had to struggle a few times trying to remember if I had to present evidence during some gimmicks or not, and it got really confusing.
That's the other reason I'm glad Apollo's in Khura'in; it means we might not have the Seance or Percieve in the next game, which will clean up the gameplay experience a ton. But it's also possible that they'll have segments with Apollo in the next game, meaning we'd still have four gimmicks. I'm hoping Capcom knows what to do better than I do.

This game was harder than Dual Destinies, which really worked well for what Capcom's been trying to do with the 3DS games (introducing new players to the series); they raised the difficulty curve like they did with the original trilogy. They know what they're doing.

They also twisted some of the structure of the series in ways that worked. Making Blackquill codefense for a case and having Phoenix be against Apollo really stretched where this game can go without forcing us into more gimmicks. And they also continued Thought Route, which is the one gimmick that works well alongside the others because it's used once per case towards the end, and it required absolutely no tutorial. It's a gimmick that defines a finale rather than the game.


All that being said, I liked this game. There were many things that didn't work, but I still had a lot of fun with it. It's a completely Apollo-centric game with a great story and neat characters; it's just rough around the edges. I give it a solid 6.5/10.
Wow, that turned into more of a review than I thought it would. :lotta:
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by Enthalpy »

I've been replaying another game in the series lately, and some interesting notes relevant to AA6:
Spoiler : AA6, PLvAA Spoilers :
What a false defense means in Labyrinthia - We just acquitted a witch, one of the sworn enemies of the town, who has terrifying powers. She can (and will) commit crimes for no reason at all. These crimes tend to be particularly cruel murders.

How defenders are treated in Labyrinthia - A few rowdies in the crowd want to kill the defense, but the defense there is never in any danger, and if they were, the guards would protect them. The only time where defending puts you in danger is if you're defending the person everybody knows is the leader of the witches. Prosecutors and judges respect defense attorneys, viewing them as an integral part of the justice system. The trials are biased against the defense, but this is due to witness testimony becoming one of the few effective means the town has to identify a witch, and thus is given too many liberties. This tradition goes back as far as the town remembers.

What a false defense means in Khurain - The usual criminals go free.

How defenders are treated in Khurain - The crowd chants "Exterminate. Annihilate," wishing for the defense lawyer to die, which will usually happen after an unsuccessful defense. As a result, there are no defense attorneys left. Prosecutors and judges have no respect for them, with judges threatening to mutilate defense attorneys who misspeak and prosecutors saying they will go to hell for their defense, as well as constantly insulting them and even using attack beads (?) on them. The trials are biased against the defense, as even questioning the interpretation of some evidence is perceived as lesemajesty, and even judges forget that witnesses can be cross-examined. This all happened because the prime suspect in the queen's murder just so happened to be a defense attorney. Almost nobody questions this state of affairs, despite it being only 25 years old and the nation highly valuing tradition.
In short, Yamazaki wrote a melodrama.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by FenrirDarkWolf »

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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by Calvinball »

So, I didn't really know where else I could put this, so I decided I might as well put it here. What is it?
Calvinball's Big, Unscripted, Seat-of-His-Pants, Possibly Unhelpful Retrospective on Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Spirit of Justice!
I just finished playing the game, sans the DLC case, and I've got a few thoughts rattling around in my head that I felt like sharing. Enjoy, or be neutral toward this, or neither, as you like.
Spoiler : Spoilered for both length and, well, spoilers for the game! :
Glen Elg said in his review that Spirit of Justice is his least favorite of the Ace Attorney games he'd played, but he still enjoyed it, and I think I'm going to have to mostly echo that sentiment. In some ways, SoJ is a fun game, and I did genuinely enjoy most of my time with it. In other ways, it just really falls flat. I'll go through my thoughts, and while it might not be that organized, I'll try to at least mark them.

Stuff I liked!

Ema showed up! Yay for Ema becoming a forensic scientist (haha, Broken predicted the future (though is now non-canon))! I liked seeing her more chipper at first, only to return to stress-eating Snackoos when she's conflicted about working against Trucy. There's not much to say about Ema besides that I thought she worked mostly well. Shoehoerning her into Khur'ain I thought was a bit much, though maybe that says more about the whole game than Ema herself.

Also, there was Maya. I'm a sucker for nostalgia, I'm afraid. I was really annoyed, though, that she seemed to mostly just be there to be there. I mean, there was no point in the game itself outside of DLC that she and Phoenix investigated together, which seems to me to be largely the POINT of Phoenix and Maya being in a game together. Their dialogue and dynamic are the cool thing! Stuffing her first in a murder trial (again...) and then in a hostage crisis (AGAIN...) felt kinda frustrating. I mean, if they're going to pander to our nostalgia, can't they at least do it a little more wholeheartedly? If they're not going to, then... just don't, maybe?

SoJ has quite a few new characters that I really like, and the ones that I can now consider my new favorites are, in order of appearance, Rayfa Padma Khura'in, Roger Retinz, Dhurke Sadmadhi, and Armie Buff. I also liked Albhi, the de Famme twins (I mean, kinda), and Uendo (also kinda), though I can't call them favorites.

I was surprised by how much I grew to like Rayfa. When she first appears, she's just this really, really bland "mean princess bad guy character, oh no, Phoenix, you're going to die." I was half-convinced that she was only there to be some kind of creepy, underage fanservice in that ridiculous Dance of Devotion cutscene that they just wouldn't stop showing us (but I'm getting ahead of myself; I'm trying to focus on just stuff I liked right now). And while I'm not necessarily unconvinced that that wasn't part of the motivations behind her character design, I'm glad that Rayfa turned out to be a lot more than that.

The improvements obviously began in 6-3, "Rite of Turnabout," which works really well to advance characterization. We get to know Rayfa a lot better, not as a generic opponent, but as the spoiled 14-year-old kid she is. What makes it work, I think, is how Phoenix interacts with her. The moment I remember best is how when she starts feeling sad and down about how she keeps misinterpreting the final moments of the victims in the Divination Seance, Phoenix puts himself down (I mean, effectively. He points out that he might forge evidence if Rayfa doesn't oversee his investigation.) in order to cheer her up.

The reason I liked this so much is that it does two great things: first, it helps endear the audience to Rayfa. Crying can induce sympathy, and seeing Rayfa tear up got that out of me. I realized that she wasn't just a generic foe, but in a lot of ways was a little kid who wanted to do the right thing and didn't get why it wasn't working anymore. Second: it really works for Phoenix's character too. While I was playing, I thought in my head, "Holy cow. He's thinking about Trucy right now." I think that's part of what makes Rayfa's development work As players, we GET why Phoenix actually tries to talk to Rayfa politely. He sees her not as an annoyance, but as a young girl like his own daughter.

So, yeah, Rayfa worked for me. Though, seriously, I reeeally could've done without the dozen Dances of Devotion they did. I mean, seriously, why?! Why so many times? I don't think we even needed it the first time, because all it adds is a vague sense of flavor to Khu'rain, and I think we already got that from everything else in the country!

But enough about Rayfa and how much I don't like the Dance of Devotion. Let's talk about Roger Retinz, otherwise known as the Great Mr. Reus! He was a very obvious bad guy (I sure wasn't surprised when he was the killer), but I don't think Ace Attorney's strength has ever been in surprising you with a bad guy, except in a very small number of cases. I ended up really growing to like Retinz as the bad guy of 6-2. 6-2 is filler, but it's at least thematically meaningful filler that also lets us see some more characterization for Trucy and Apollo, and we get Roger Retinz, a new favorite bad guy of mine.

Retinz's two personas - the TV producer and the Great Mr. Reus - both end up being a lot of fun to witness in action. I liked hating Retinz and what I imagined to be his drawling, apathetic tone that pretended enthusiasm. While I thought the plot to repossess the Agency was kinda forced and felt like it was just sorta thrown into the mess (I mean, was Trucy going to prison for murder or having her magician career basically over not stakes enough for you, SoJ?), I liked him and his revenge plot against the Gramaryes enough on their own.

I guess I ended up liking him for pretty shallow reasons. He's really just a flashy, mustache-twirlingly-evil villain, but sometimes that's all I really want out of an Ace Attorney murderer. He gets great lines ("No tricks. No gimmicks. Only magic."), is obsessed and crazy, and I love the transformation from Retinz to Reus (Ga'ran's transformation sequence could take note! It's a lot more fun to reuse elements of the old costume so we can see both personas at work in the same person instead of just looking like a different character entirely!) using the cape and hat. Might I add that I heard somewhere that in some circles, having short-sleeves as a magician can be used as an indicator of talent - it means you don't have anything hidden up your sleeves, because your sleight of hand is better than that.

Also, once I figured out how to pronounce his last name properly, I loved the pun. Along with Albhi, one of the few that I really enjoyed in the game.

Next up I want to talk about Dhurke. I actually don't think I have a lot to say about him. He's awesome, he's cool, and I actually believed in his relationship with Apollo, even with the obviousness (and I think unnecessity) of the constant flashback to him rescuing Apollo and Nahyuta from a river. I loved seeing him be such an honorable guy, espousing a bloodless revolution and willingly going through a civil trial to get the rights to the Founder's Orb instead of just taking it. So, yeah, Dhurke's a cool guy, and I think the dying at the end thing actually worked pretty well. When I figured out that he was already dead (one of the few mysteries that I didn't have figured out like an hour before Apollo), I actually felt similarly devastated. Which I wasn't expecting to happen!

My last new favorite character is Armie Buff. Obviously because she is absolutely adorable, oh my gosh! I don't usually get excited about adorable characters, but I think I actually audibly reacted when she first appeared, cuddling her drone, she's so adorable! I'll also admit that I liked hearing her call people "capitalist swine" when she got angry; it pleased the revisionist Marxist within the less practical parts of my heart. I also liked the drone and talking to her through Sarge. I liked DeKiller's radio in JFA, so I found the drone pretty entertaining, along with the military motif.

She even gets a bit of a character arc, which was cool. Although including her standing up so literally at the end felt a little TOO on the nose. I mean, I get it, it's symbolic, but at that point it felt a little like overkill. But, overall, Armie Buff was adorable, and the civil trial was almost (eh, not really) worth it just to have her there.

While he's not a new favorite of mine, I did like Albhi, though less for himself and more for what he does for the narrative - or specifically, for Rayfa's narrative. Rayfa's development from hating defense attorneys to being more open-minded about her role in Khur'ain's trials worked partly thanks to Albhi. Since we actually see him grow to like and respect Phoenix - and we see Rayfa see that - it feels natural that Rayfa would begin to question her beliefs, since the people around her have already questioned their's. It was a small thing that I noticed that I think helped.

Oh, also, Albhi was I think the only Khurainese character whose pun name actually made me laugh, since it actually took me a second to figure it out. The others were all just... so... painfully obvious...

I really didn't like the twin twist that the de Fammes were part of, but it at least wasn't the crux of the crime. And despite the ridiculousness of the twist, the fact that it DOES tie into Bonny's teleportation act made it a little easier to swallow as something foreshadowed and not something totally out of the blue. It helped a lot that the dynamic between Betty and Bonny was pretty entertaining.

I wanted to like Uendo more, but I couldn't quite. I guess part of it's that we get so little time with him, since the case is so short. Also, for some reason, Capcom decided to give the "heartfelt ending" of the trial to... Geiru? Um... okay? And NOT to Uendo, who is the much more interesting character? Also, the DID felt pretty out there, though they sort of almost convinced me? At the very least, the dynamic between Uendo, Patches, and Kisegawa was fun to watch, though Owen being there seemed like a twist for twist's sake more than anything.

Aside from characters, I also liked the return of Examining everywhere! ...Except when the devs were lazy and just had the character decide they didn't have time to examine stuff... So... kinda only halfway-liked.

The humor of the game also got me quite a few times, but that's par for the course for Ace Attorney. If I couldn't say this about an Ace Attorney game, I'd be really disappointed.

Oh, in the Thought Route for 6-2, when thinking about what Bonny's mistake is, you can say that it was her life choices, which is pretty funny! Apollo even goes on to say that he shouldn't think that, and he mentally wishes Bonny good luck, which is even funnier to me!

Apollo's story and arc were quite interesting, and I enjoyed it a lot! Seeing his interactions and getting to know his past better was fun. The introspection we got felt pretty real for Ace Attorney, I thought, so the story felt pretty good.

In 6-3, Maya getting serious felt like a legitimately meaningful insight into her growth as a person. Old Maya would've insisted on Lady Kee'ra being real for just a bit longer, so seeing her drop that and try to seriously help Phoenix hash out the case felt like a good example of showing us how she's changed just a little bit. And referencing their ladder and step-ladder debate didn't hurt in my book.

Um... gee, I feel like there should be more than this, but... I dunno. I guess that's all that I really enjoyed about the game. Next section!

Stuff I was kind of meh or conflicted about!

Basically... all of the cases themselves. None of the mysteries felt quite well put together. About the only things I actually enjoyed were figuring out that Dhurke was dead, figuring out that the Founder needed to be channeled for the prophecy to work, the Founder's Orb box puzzle, and... uh...

Yeah. None of the other mysteries impressed me or made me feel clever. It was mostly all terribly obvious or somewhat logically questionable.

The jokes Dhurke made about Trucy marrying Apollo were... funny? I think? But also kind of uncomfortable? The way Trucy actually answers Dhurke by saying "Dad." (as a joke, obviously, BUT STILL) made me feel unsure of how I should react, given that Trucy is not only Apollo's brother (something they, in fairness, didn't know (but I guess that's finally changing?)), but also 17 (something they actually DO know)!

Ga'ran as the murderer in 6-5 was, well... I mean, I know I said about Retinz that I didn't mind an obvious, mustache-twirlingly-evil bad guy, but in his case it was obvious from the first time you meet him, basically. With Ga'ran, they actually try to fake you out that it's Amara, which would be interesting since she sure doesn't seem the type... but then it's just Ga'ran anyway. Which actually felt kind of disappointing, oddly.

Another thing that bothered me is that I actually thought the stakes were TOO high. Everyone was always about to die, or lose the agency, or stop a revolution from happening! I mean, gee! I remember when it was just a big deal for the defendant to go to jail!

Edgeworth's appearance really rubbed me as unnecessary. I mean, all he does is... provide a private jet, I guess? Was there something else about political favors? But honestly, that doesn't make any sense, because he's just a city politician, and not even that; he's a city DISTRICT politician! He doesn't have any real reason to be dealing with national powers. So maybe I just imagined that bit about political favors. I mean, I liked Maya, but she was really underepreresented in the game that was partially about her return to the franchise. I like Edgeworth, but it felt like he was just in the game so Capcom could say he was in the game.

I really wanted to like the civil trial, but it felt mostly disconnected from everything else in the case, like it was really just there to tell us "the Founder needs to be channeled to bestow spiritual power," which, I mean, is important and needs to happen, so I guess the trial works? But also, Maya being kidnapped... again... it just... meh. I've only got it here and not under "didn't like" because I adore the absurdity of Phoenix's last ditch attempt to stall the trial by claiming the Founder's Orb failed its own test by not bestowing Apollo with great spiritual power and I thought Armie Buff was adorable.

I also wanted to like Paul Atishon as a villain, but he just feels so pathetic, even when he first appears, that it's hard to get angry about being threatened. And there's very little finesse, and his style is really just being pompous about things. Retinz is pompous, but he combines that with his trash-TV style of talking or magician's flair to make things more interesting.

The Divination Seance was interesting, I thought (the last two in 6-5 I thought were surprisingly clever), but still annoying. First, that Dance of Devotion kept happening. Second, the music is so slow and quiet and dull that I can almost never tell if I got the puzzle right, and the tension is just nonexistent. Very annoying, I thought.

Stuff I definitely didn't like!

WHY SO MANY FLASHBACKS?! WHY?! I swear, I was getting pretty sick of seeing Dhurke hugging Nahyuta and Apollo by the game's end...

Nahyuta never really clicked for me. Honestly, I... kind of ignored him for the whole game. I liked the bad guy showdowns between the defense and witness WAY more than the showdowns between the defense and prosecution, because he just felt so tremendously uninteresting and bland. The only thing I liked about him was his gag of studying everything about a case the night before and gaining the ability to endlessly rattle off trivia related to the case.

Geiru. Just... why? At least April May was funny along with being an assault on my eyes.

Case 6-4 really fell flat for me. The only bright spots were Athena and Uendo, since I actually am kinda fond of Athena, and Uendo was marginally more interesting than the rest of the case's cast. But everything else... Simon taking over with no input from me, the player, Toneido being a pretty awful person, Nahyuta being his boring old self, Geiru, etc... I had SOME fun, but not as much as I'd want out of the game.

WHY SO MANY DANCES OF DEVOTION?! I mean, seriously! We didn't even need it the one time! It really felt like they were just trying to use Rayfa as underage fanservice, which is just creepy! At least they were skippable...

Also, Maya being on trial... again... and kidnapped... again... I mean, SURELY there are SOME other ideas for what can be done with Maya. She's more than just a plot device to get Phoenix motivated to do crazy stuff, Capcom!

The CGI cutscenes were just... kind of awkward. And made me wonder why they also had the drawn and animated cutscenes. The models just aren't convincing from different angles, and they move too clunkily.

Overall thoughts!

Like I said, it's my least favorite, but I did enjoy it. It had the humor and characters I hoped to see, though not as consistently as I would've liked. I like some of the new characters like Retinz and Armie enough that I definitely don't regret playing, but it wasn't as tight and concrete an experience as most of the other games. I just wish it felt more whole. I wish it didn't feel like I was keeping an eye out for the "good bits" like Rayfa, Armie, or Dhurke. The game was functional, but in too many ways it feels more like a step backwards as a whole.
Last edited by Calvinball on Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by Enthalpy »

SoJ was my second-least-favorite, ranking above DD. I've been planning to go through it again, and maybe it'll change my opinion?

I'd be curious if you could elaborate on Rayfa. I found her generic, as I never for a moment thought
Spoiler : :
the game would actually make a 14-year old girl evil. After her breakdown in case 1, I became convinced they couldn't possibly go that direction.

But if I'm reading your review correctly, the best part of her (and not just Phoenix's response to her) was that reveal that I thought was obvious from the start.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by Calvinball »

Enthalpy wrote:I'd be curious if you could elaborate on Rayfa. I found her generic, as I never for a moment thought
Spoiler : :
the game would actually make a 14-year old girl evil. After her breakdown in case 1, I became convinced they couldn't possibly go that direction.

But if I'm reading your review correctly, the best part of her (and not just Phoenix's response to her) was that reveal that I thought was obvious from the start.
Spoiler : My somewhat disorganized thoughts on Rayfa :
You have a point there. I suppose I never really thought she'd be capital E Evil, but I guess I didn't expect them to go to such an effort to humanize her, if that makes sense? It wasn't so much the surprise of it (since it wasn't really that surprising in retrospect, now that you point it out), but that they actually bothered to do it in what I thought was a reasonable and interesting way.

Thinking about it, I suppose her arc is a little obvious, but it's at least something. Maybe I'm just a sucker for bratty characters turning out to have "hidden" vulnerabilities and childish behaviors. Maybe it was that I found so many other parts of the game bland that I was just glad that Rayfa provided some laughs with her ignorance of things that were obvious to Phoenix and her childish love of the Plumed Punisher.

I dunno. To be fair, I'm not especially perceptive, so I guess it just didn't occur to me that Rayfa wouldn't be more than a walking gimmick that would come onstage, perform the Divination Seance, and then leave without another word once per case. Because of that, I didn't end up feeling like I saw Rayfa's development, such as it were, ahead of time. I was surprised she showed up outside of court at all.

Maybe that's the difference. It's not that I thought they'd really make her evil, but it's that at first I thought they wouldn't make her anything.
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by Enthalpy »

I'll keep an eye out for that.

Also, I will give SoJ this:
Spoiler : :
I was wondering how the monk was planning on not getting found out when it came time for the yearly rite. Then I remembered the royal family was in on it! It makes sense in hindsight.

Also, (finally) a reason to move the body: nobody was supposed to be in the treasure room, so it puts more suspicion on Ahlbi. It also makes a "third party killer" theory much harder, seeing that a third person in the treasure room would get found out immediately.

I only wish they would have explained that last part explicitly, but you can't have everything.
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by Sleuth »

Spoiler : on rayfa but not really im just talking about a general trend in AA :
its personally really obvious to me because AA always has a young teen girl to be the emotional core of the story, whether it be Maya in the first, Pearl in the second, Ema, Kay, Athena etc. Even in the spinoff games this still happens. (Also tangentially they always do the same goddamn big emotional crying/smile thing for every female character ever to let u know you got the GOOD END. franziska, aura, lana, adrian andrews, they even did it to trucy now. why yamazaki.) idk how fair it is to judge the story on hitting the tropes it likely is aiming for. idk. like you sorta know without looking that say, the new Prosecutor character is gonna have some backstory with the protag, a cool gimmick, and then eventually turn to the good side when their issues are cleared. it does seem that when these characters are done with their arcs, the story doesn't exactly know what to do with them. the recurring cast is getting pretty heavy at this point, with like how many prosecutors to juggle.

none of this is particularly bad im just sorta burnt out on it from AA i guess. honestly from what ive seen, SoJ takes a lot more risks than DD which I'm a big fan of. So though these things are relatively safe and sorta "one and done"

to attempt to wrap this nonsense drabble up into something worth adding to the convo: i think how much Rayfa works depends on how accustomed you are to the usual AA tropes and then whether or not you're still down for them. For example if someone just picked up SoJ as their first game (i have no idea why but hey it could happen) they'd probably be like "what's the deal with this rayfa girl??? is she gonna be good? evil? idk?"

or maybe not i still havent played it rip

i dont really have any other insight here i just wanted to say my piece on that. idk. who am i. where am i. what am i going on about. this got out of hand im tapping out before i write anymore bye
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Enthalpy
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by Enthalpy »

After replaying SoJ, I'm inclined to say that I disagree with both of you, but to explain why, I need to explain one of the worst parts of SoJ. Expect more to come!
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Re: Ace Attorney 6

Post by Gamer2002 »

DD and SoJ were recently released on Android, so I played them. I'll write here my thoughts about them, because why not.

Short opinion: DD was mediocre, but I liked SoJ. Both suffer from shonen escalation problem (international scandals worked better in Edgeworth's games, due to his position), though SoJ made it more fun. Both also ignore most of AJ stuff, though SoJ actually returns to Gramarye plotline.

I find most of DD forgettable, though not as much as AAI. AAI had some cool characters, but it's hard to remember much more about it than "I had kinda different gameplay, we played as Edgeworth, and the final boss was loooooong". DD had a good villain in DLC, final boss was entertaining as a boss fight (not much as a character, but I filed the blanks with my headcanon of Phantom being TF2 Spy) and I liked Tenma as my client. And also I find Blackquill one of the best main prosecutors. He was entertaining, made good points, and could made my life miserable in a way that I loved it.

As for Athena, she was ok. Nothing great, nothing bad, though the Mood Matrix shouldn't be so forgiving (DD in general was constantly leading me by hand). I saw opinions that she was stealing the show, but I didn't really see it that way. If you want to see stealing shows, I would like you to replay AJ and notice how the game treats Apollo, the titular character who is supposed to be introduced and whose story we are supposed to follow, in comparison to Phoenix. Heck, I say that DD gave Apollo better story than AJ, because what was Apollo's story in AJ? Get burned by both his mentor and his idol on his very first trial, reluctantly join his not-so-great-anymore idol's office, and agree to help in clearing the idol's name after learning everything and sorting out their differences offscreen? Oh, and he has a half-sister and a mother he never learns about. DD does give Athena pretty big importance, but this is what happens during an introduction of the newest main character. Unless you are playing AJ.

And Phoenix does have own story in DD, though DD was pretty bad at telling it, while it also decided to simply soft-reboot his AJ characterization. And I'm surprised it decided to just ignore AJ, because all the elements necessary for a great followup from there were already here.
  • Dark Age of Law - this thing was vague as hell and poorly defined, but the idea of "lawyers have to use false evidence against false charges" just asked to bring up that this was exactly what happened in 4-1. Not to mention, the public opinion losing its trust in prosecutors was logical followup from all those scandals in original trilogy and Edgy's games (and they only mention Blackquill...). Phoenix cleared his own name, he once again was the famed attorney that exposed corrupted elements in the legal system. But in 4-1 he tricked Apollo into using fake evidence, which put Apollo at risk of having the public opinion turning against him. The possibilities were endless, but the writers abandoned them all.
  • Phoenix and his subordinates - in AJ Phoenix flat-out manipulated Apollo into doing things that, while could be also called right things to do, were self-serving for Phoenix. Only on the last day of 4-4 he treated Apollo as a serious partner by telling him everything. And he did it offscreen. In DD Phoenix is back to business, and has two lawyers under him, and this time he is the one who has to help others. Aside from the DLC, all Phoenix's trials in DD were about him saving his subordinates. He takes over in 5-1 when both Apollo and Athena can't handle the trial, he takes over in 5-4 when Apollo is too injured to defend his lesser idol, he fixes what is broken between Apollo and Athena in 5-5. Not to mention, he finally stands on trial with Apollo on his side, for the first time since 4-1. DD wanted to do a story about regaining trust, while completely ignoring that its titular character was regaining trust the entire time.
  • DLC - Phoenix having for his return to defend not only the accused, not only another accused, but also the man he himself accused could also be used to have him impress Apollo, and show that clearing his name was worth it.
Also, Trucy. In all the cases but the final one, she was the most unnecessary character in this franchise. After playing DD I didn't feel like like her relationship with Apollo evolved beyond becoming a self-parody (he went through hell, so I'll abuse him moar!), neither that I had learned more about her relationship with Phoenix. And I also learned nothing about her relationship with Athena. After Edgeworth having entire army following him in AAI2, was it that hard for DD to have Trucy be the second partner? It would, you know, make the player care about what happens to her in 5-5.

After writing tl;dr post about DD, I guess it's time I would write more in detail about SoJ.
Spoiler : :
SoJ makes things even more overly epic than DD, by dragging Phoenix and co into a revolution in foreign country. Apollo's past was some fanfiction material, but I'll take a good fanfiction over the crap that was his plotline in AJ. Villains were definitely more memorable than in DD, only the culprits of 6-4 and DLC were rather meh. I liked the new setting, I liked many of the new characters, and I liked the return to the Gramarye plot-line (I don't mind the retcon with Mr. Raus, I only wish Valant would return). Ga'ran made Manfred look down to earth and chill, and I loved this. I also really liked the satirical aspect of this game. The way it mocked dishonest journalists and politicians, it was completely spot on. That the audience of western trial was just as gullible as the audience in overly-religious country was also nice. The game had its things to say, and they were much better than DD's "false evidence and charges bad, trust good".

Ema's return was good. Maya's return was... I know she had to be accused once more, and I welcomed it after her absence. Her kidnapping was a lazy and not well executed reason for Phoenix to act against Apollo in 5-5, but I liked the later twist with Dhruke. DLC wasn't anything special, just Maya tagging along for fun. Maybe they'll do something interesting with her in AA7, but I find it disappointing that she had almost no interactions with Apollo and zero with Athena and Trucy. Maya could be a great Team Mom to Phoenix's Team Dad, and that would be a good direction for the character, but this requires her to spend time with the Team. Once again, AAI2 had a big team following Edgeworth, why does DD and SoJ restrict the amount of involved characters?
And with her mastering the channeling, now the writers will have to answer "how come Maya doesn't channel the victim?". Though this is a problem ever since ever, so I'll just roll with it.

Oh, and the main prosecutor was the worst in the series. He had some good moments even before 6-5, but for 95% I had to endure talking to a wall. His contempt of accused and lawyers was neither interesting, nor entertaining. And I don't feel like he did enough to make up for being a part of cruel regime. Ga'ran was utterly evil, but it was glorious and she was satisfying to beat. There was nothing satisfying about having to deal with Nahyuta.

While I really liked Apollo's grow, this is a one more thing that would be infinitely better if they didn't soft-rebooted AJ. Trucy's case also would benefit if she faced the fact that she participated in tricking him into using fake evidence, and then she acted like nothing ever happened. Her admitting to what she did would make that whole "I thought you wouldn't believe me" much more powerful. I would be more interested in tackling such issues than him having his personal Edgeworth and Manfred von Karma. But again, his personal Manfred von Karma was glorious.

But aside from DGS and PLvsAA, which I didn't play, I think SoJ was better than anything we got post original trilogy, excluding AAI2. Yes, the prosecutor was bad. But the rest was able to make up for it.

And I also loved the suggestion that Phoenix was drunk through the entirety of AJ. This is now canonical explanation of his change between AJ and DD, and I am 100% behind it.
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