Undertale Thread?

Discuss video games from Pong to Call of Duty, including Ace Attorney games.

Moderators: EN - Assistant Moderators, EN - Forum Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
lazyplague
Posts: 2430
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:24 pm
Gender: Female
Spoken languages: English
Location: Hell. Gay Hell, to be exact.

Undertale Thread?

Post by lazyplague »

Undertale Thread.

Undertale is a bullet-hell meets Turn-based RPG by Toby Fox. You don't have to kill anyone.

Go buy it. It's p good. Any actual discussion of the game's spoilers (Unless it's stuff shown in promo material. General rule.) should ideally be put into spoiler tags for the general population to not accidentally spoil themselves on.
User avatar
enigma
Posts: 3421
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:05 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: miaou
Location: dancecat's heaven
Contact:

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by enigma »

I already posted these in my art thread but... here.
Spoiler : No Spoilers :
Image
Spoiler : Early Game spoilers :
Image
Spoiler : Genocide Route Endgame Spoilers :
Image
User avatar
NihilisticNinja
Posts: 1012
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:23 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, Latin

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by NihilisticNinja »

(Moving to Undertale thread. And ftr Dave I apologize for calling you out- I just felt like trying to provide at least a somewhat nuanced argument, and I felt that it would be unfair to note the things you said and not attribute them to their source. I know some people do it, but it often feels kind of icky to me.)
Dave wrote:
Spoiler : Genocide Spoilers :
One could say the reward is simply the ability to be forgiven. Most people would look at mass-murder and be like "No chance for redemption." But for the most part, you can still get the main ending, and even if you killed literally everyone besides Mettaton, you'd still be able to get to Asgore and spare him/get past him. Sans won't stop you, even if you only spared one other person in your whole entire go. You certainly would be a dirty brother killer, though.
Spoiler : Genocide :
Except that isn't something that is really brought up in story as a potential reward. It's not like the game has problems with meta commentary, so something like that would have been just fine- providing some kind of carrot would be better than nothing at all. You could argue that this is already a carrot, true, but it's a carrot in abstract, and that isn't an adequate motivator for most people.

Now, you could argue that they didn't want to come up with direct motivators for you to stop playing genocide route. But that runs contrary to the idea that this is a route that shouldn't be done. If they didn't want the route done- narratively speaking, of course- then i feel like more carrots or sticks should have been employed.
Dave wrote:
Spoiler : Genocide Spoilers :
The game even tells you outright with Papyrus, you still have a chance to be good. The game doesn't condemn you for murder, it condemns you for continuing to kill, and this is true up till the very end, where you fight Sans. You still have the freedom of choice. You can quit with Sans. You can leave Mettaton, and simply just proceed as normal in Neutral. You can spare the monster kid. You can spare Papyrus. You can spare Toriel. You can spare any monster in the game. Sure, you'll feel bad if you wait too long, but you'll have a chance to save others by going back to Pacifist. You have the chance for redemption.
Spoiler : Genocide :
My point, though, is that the game provides no real motivation to do so, if you're going down this route anyway. Maybe the character deaths just didn't have as much resonance for me as they did for you (though I did really enjoy all the characters), but by themselves they don't feel like adequate motivation, particularly given that in most cases you will have gotten neutral route before this, and probably seen at least one or two of the deaths anyway.

Like, in the end, I would argue that there needs to be some motivation beyond what the player recognizes as the cost of the route for the idea "you chose your own fate" to be particularly powerful. Or, at a minimum, it would be far more powerful if such was the case.

Did I choose to go down this route? Sure, but the game, I don't feel, provided a strong enough incentive for me to change my mind. If it's going to punish me for making this decision, it should throw in actual reasons to not make the decision beyond things that I have already decided are acceptable losses- in this case, the other characters.

Like... if I may go psychology nerd for a second, this is a textbook example of compliance- the party wants you to do something, but does not have the authority to stop you- well, they did have the authority to just not make the route or shut down the game when you head towards it, but given that that authority no longer exists, the principle applies. The thing is, people really need some form of persuasion in order to comply to another person's desires, and there are specific techniques to utilize in order to accomplish this. And I simply don't believe that in this case, the persuasion provided was adequate in order to make the thrust of the Genocide route as effective as it could have been.
Dave wrote:
Spoiler : Genocide Spoilers :
And for how you get nothing for stopping... It's the same for Genocide in terms of going forward. If you continue on in Genocide, you don't have the option of truly saving anyone, nor do you get any reward. Instead, you're punished. The ultimate punishment is losing the ability to complete pacifist normally. Many have commented on how this really doesn't change much in terms of gameplay, but symbolically as a player, it takes a lot away. You are no longer in control of the fate of the characters.
Spoiler : Genocide :
Oh, that is certainly a punishment, but I don't feel like it's a fair punishment, to begin with, because I don't believe the incentives were strong enough to actually make it so that playing genocide warrants such a punishment. If the game provided tangible incentives to get you to stop playing the route, then absolutely, you got the ending you deserved. But the game made it a route, then did practically nothing to argue that you should not take the route or persuade you that there are good reasons not to, and then as a result punishes you for making the choice.
"With good friends by your side, anything is possible. If you really care for each other, it makes everyone stronger! Then you'll have the will to succeed! The world is filled with painful things, it's sad sometimes, and you won't be able to handle it by yourself. But just know: If there's someone that you love, you'll stay on the right path. And you won't ever give in! As long as you keep that person in your heart, you'll keep getting back up. Understand? That's why a Hero never loses!"
Image
Miki by Hershey's Chocolate Bars.
User avatar
gotMLK7
Moderator
Posts: 5957
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:34 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, learning French
Location: I could tell you, but then I'd have to KILL YOU...

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by gotMLK7 »

I drew a couple things yeeeeeee
Spoiler : Character pics, not too spoilery for plot :
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Hersh/Fiendy has credit for the amazing GiGi pics and enigma has credit for the adorable Kenshin Mega Man sprite!

Image
User avatar
gotMLK7
Moderator
Posts: 5957
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:34 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, learning French
Location: I could tell you, but then I'd have to KILL YOU...

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by gotMLK7 »

My sis wanted me to draw Sans and "Mowgli" so I did that.
Spoiler : :
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Hersh/Fiendy has credit for the amazing GiGi pics and enigma has credit for the adorable Kenshin Mega Man sprite!

Image
PhoenixRises123
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:25 pm
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by PhoenixRises123 »

enigma wrote:I already posted these in my art thread but... here.
Spoiler : No Spoilers :
Image
Spoiler : Early Game spoilers :
Image
Spoiler : Genocide Route Endgame Spoilers :
Image
MY reactions to each pic..
#1
Spoiler : :
H0I I'm temmie!
#2
Spoiler : :
Gosh dangit Flowey..
#3
Spoiler : :
I feel like I'm gonna have a bad time..
User avatar
gotMLK7
Moderator
Posts: 5957
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:34 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, learning French
Location: I could tell you, but then I'd have to KILL YOU...

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by gotMLK7 »

I finally beat Genocide Route, and as a result have beaten the three main routes of Undertale.
Spoiler : Genocide Route, and general Undertale thoughts :
It took me maybe 6 hours of total game time to beat Sans? Very spread apart, of course. He was probably my favorite boss in the game for a lot of reasons but the fact that he's VERY GOOD at convincing you to stop is a big part of that. It's 11 PM and my parents are in bed but I shouted "OH MY GOD I DID IT" in the most genuine way possible when I finally beat the final laser attack (literally the only thing preventing me from winning a long time ago as I reached that attack and died there for at least half my runs) and then proceeded to feel immensely unsatisfied. In a good way, as it kind of drove the entire point of the route home.

I'll be honest...a folder of different save files for the game. Partially for the sake of my sister's livestream playthrough being unaffected by my own, but...yeah largely to keep Genocide Route from affecting other files. Which I suppose is going against the point of the game teaching you your actions have consequences. But honestly, doing so kind of helped make Undertale my favorite game of the year.

When I beat the neutral ending, I mentioned thinking it was a really good game that I didn't really get as emotionally invested in as everyone else. Now that I'm streaming the game, beating the routes, searching for VAs for the characters, and watching dozens of videos and such on it, that has obviously changed. It was actually the moment I learned that Genocide affected future runs that the game really got to me. Not because it was a really cool game design choice and not because I liked the message it was going for, but because...well, I didn't want to do that to Frisk. At the end of the Pacifist Route, Flowey says it himself. Let Frisk live in peace. And I wanted to. But I wanted to try the Genocide Route, since...well, it was Megalovania that made me jump on the game in the first place. I wanted to fight Sans because that's the reason I got the game. But I couldn't just hurt Frisk and their friends forever.

Here's the thing Undertale made me realize about how I play games. I don't put myself in the protagonist's shoes. Even if it's a silent protagonist like Frisk, in my mind they are their own person. That's why I could do Genocide Route; I was playing as an evil character doing evil things. The game may have kept telling me that I was terrible for killing everyone, but I could distance myself from the game and understand that I wasn't murdering anyone, I was just doing actions on a computer to further a narrative. But even though I played the first route rather casually, learning that playing Genocide would harm future runs and potentially ruin Frisk's life? That CRUSHED me. I had no idea what to do. I wanted to try Genocide and see the story and fight Sans. But I didn't want to hurt Frisk. That's when I REALLY clicked with the game. The game got me attached to the characters in a way that, when I potentially could destroy their fictional lives, I didn't know what to do with myself. I had only just beaten Neutral with a pacifist style (meaning Pacifist Ending would be very easy to get) yet I stopped playing for a few days, just to try and figure out what to do.

Eventually, learning my sister wanted to play gave me an excuse to tinker with the files. So I did so. I backed up my Neutral File. Then, I beat Pacifist. I backed that up. And I kept using these files. I currently have a file for Pacifist complete, my sister's run, Genocide complete, an altered shortcut I got online for Sans with full inventory of pies to practice, and I'm slowly gathering a collection of boss fight files so I can replay them whenever I want, currently with Sans and Undyne the Undying saved. Might use those last ones for a countdown some day. But regardless, I isolated the playthroughs from one another, essentially killing the idea of Genocide having long-lasting effects on other files. It goes against the idea the game does an amazing job of building up that your actions have consequences, yes, and that's my one regret doing so. But...I was actually MORALLY TORN for at least a couple days on whether I should do it because of that. Yeah, the game got under my skin so much that the decision to alter files in the game for convenience became a serious moral dilemma for me. That was the real moment that I realized I loved this game. The moment that I had the realization, "This game is seriously making me morally debate my choices, I don't think I've ever had that happen before". And it wasn't because I felt guilted for wanting to try Genocide run, but because I felt guilty between going against the storyteller's ideas in order to, in my mind, save Frisk from what I'd be doing. It's not what was in mind for the game, no, but it made me respect the thing a TON more than I already did just because of how seriously I felt about it.

At the end of the Genocide Run, I didn't erase the world. Chara attacked me (and holy hell I didn't realize how much the game just freaks out at that point), the game crashed. I didn't return to let them ask again. I've locked the Genocide Route up at that point, not touching the other runs of the game. This, in my mind, is how I won Undertale. I created alternate universes. One if the route in which Frisk lives happily with the monsters, the one I decided to protect. One is the route in which the fallen child was a monster, but it's been caged up to never be played again. I've experienced the whole package...and I still got to keep Frisk safe. That's how I won Undertale. Is it standard? No. Is it potentially a controversial way to go about things? Probably. Does it undermine the game itself? I don't think so. It's only because I did so that the game struck me as much as it did. Had I not done it, I'd have been pissed at the game for making it so hard to play it as an actual video game ever again. But because I did it...Well, I feel bad about going against the point, but I feel like I've beaten the cycle the game expects me to trap myself in. It's a bittersweet victory, but it's a victory regardless.

So...yeah. Undertale's my game of the year and I truly did adore it. I don't know what else to say, really. But it's certainly left a much bigger impact on me than I ever expected, and I'm really glad to have played it.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Hersh/Fiendy has credit for the amazing GiGi pics and enigma has credit for the adorable Kenshin Mega Man sprite!

Image
User avatar
gotMLK7
Moderator
Posts: 5957
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:34 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, learning French
Location: I could tell you, but then I'd have to KILL YOU...

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by gotMLK7 »

After shouting into a trashcan to do the voice on livestream, I decided to practice some lines with actual decent audio effects. So here's me reading some FABULOUS lines while sick yaaaaay
some Undertale spoilers
Image
Image
Image
Image
Hersh/Fiendy has credit for the amazing GiGi pics and enigma has credit for the adorable Kenshin Mega Man sprite!

Image
User avatar
Ami
Moderator
Posts: 8429
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 12:42 pm
Gender: Female
Spoken languages: English
Location: Puppies!

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by Ami »

Image

Image
since 2008!
Image
User avatar
Bad Player
Posts: 7228
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 10:53 pm
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: American
Location: Under a bridge

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by Bad Player »

...How do you write a script for something before you know which character it's supposed to be about
User avatar
Kroki
Admin
Posts: 7475
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:05 pm
Spoken languages: Français, English, Español, 日本語
Contact:

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by Kroki »

This is free, please feast.
Spoiler : :
Image
ImageImage Image Image Image
PhoenixRises123
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:25 pm
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by PhoenixRises123 »

Bad Player wrote:...How do you write a script for something before you know which character it's supposed to be about
I wann 2 know aboot TEMMIE!!
User avatar
Mr. Onizuka
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:32 pm
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English, Español

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by Mr. Onizuka »

Bad Player wrote:...How do you write a script for something before you know which character it's supposed to be about
Well, the game creator gave various hints about the nature of some characters, but ultimately didn't tell what was the deal with them. My guess is that he can write about any of these characters (or has the general idea of what he wants to do with each one of them) and will listen to his fans as to which one will go in the next game (he didn't say this would be his last).
Spoiler : PS :
Play the Game. I was skeptical at first about why people love this so much. Was prove wrong, the game deserves the love it gets.
Spoiler : PS2 :
...Still think fandoms ruin every good work lol. Hasn't happened here (yet) though.
Avatar by Kristin Ridgley
User avatar
ArkhamKnight
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:45 am
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English
Location: Jupiter

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by ArkhamKnight »

Spoiler : Genocide Route spoilers :
Image
Image
User avatar
energizerspark
Posts: 4130
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:41 pm
Gender: Male
Spoken languages: English
Location: the Whole Sort of General Mish Mash

Re: Undertale Thread?

Post by energizerspark »

Ami wrote:Image

Image
so, uh

how about that other game then
this signature has been left as it was when I left the forum for archival purposes
Currently watching:
Steven Universe
Currently playing:
Currently reading:
Image
the avatar is from Urusei Yatsura in case you were wondering
Image
Post Reply