The Legend of Zelda

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Re: The Legend of Zelda

Post by kwando1313 »

I haven't played it, but I've watched a few streams of it........

And it looks INCREDIBLE.

I actually want to get it now. And considering I wasn't going to get it before, that's... A pretty big change for me. :P
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Re: The Legend of Zelda

Post by energizerspark »

Spoiler : breath of the wild :
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Re: The Legend of Zelda

Post by Spongesonic »

Wanted to share my thoughts about Tears of the Kingdom so far after spending a decent chunk of my time on it. I'm still nowhere near close to the end, so keep that in mind.
Spoiler : TotK Spoilers :
So, when I first played Breath of the Wild, I liked it a lot, but still preferred other Zelda games over it. But then a recent playthrough of the game in preparation for this game made me love it even more, enough that it ended up becoming my favorite game in the series.

I give all that backstory because Tears of the Kingdom is so much better than Breath of the Wild, it isn't even funny. I dunno how the magicians at Nintendo did it, but they somehow one-upped themselves again. Yes, it's the same overworld as the last game, but it's changed so much that it feels like a completely different place. That's not even mentioning the Sky Islands and the Depths which add so much to the game. Not to mention the far more engaging story and dungeons are exactly what I hoped for.

Playing around with contraptions is fun. I'm not even going to pretend I'm smart enough to be able to come up with some crazy death machine, but it's just a very fun system to mess around with. Ultrahand is the best ability in the series, full stop. And then Fuse, Ascend, and Recall add so much to the game as well. You'd think all these abilities would break so many puzzles, but the design in this game is so meticulous that it all just works.

That's not to say I'd don't have problems. Strangely enough, I think the tutorial is a bit worse than the last game's. The Great Sky Island isn't nearly as open as the Great Plateau and I feel it can give the wrong impression of what the game is like. It definitely takes longer to get going, that's for sure. Once things do get going though, it's pure freedom all the way.

The other complaint I have is with Shrines. For the most part they're still pretty good, but I'm a bit disappointed with some of the Blessing Shrines (the ones that don't have a puzzle and just give you the prize up front). These used to be some of my favorites in the last game because they were tied to unique quests, and while some of them still are in this game, so many of them feel a lot more unwarranted this time around, either just requiring you to explore a cave or bring the Shrine over to its resting spot. Getting a Blessing Shrine should feel like an accomplishment, but so many of them this time around feel like filler.

On the bright side with Shrines though, the boring, samey Test of Strength Shrines have been completely replaced with the far superior Proving Grounds Shrines. They're basically if Eventide Island was turned into an entire recurring theme - all your gear is taken away and you have to scrounge for scraps to fight off the nearby enemies. While they still involve fighting robots (this time an entire horde instead of just one really tough one), they're actually allowed to have unique layouts and challenges that make them stand out. These have been some of my favorite Shrines in the game, and I'm always happy to see them.

Yeah, I still have problems, no game is truly perfect... but even so, the good far, far outweighs the bad. So yeah, literally every good thing you've heard about this game is true. This may very well be my new favorite game ever. Other games need not apply for Game of the Year.

And to think LotR: Gollum thought it would be a good idea to release in the same month as this. How embarassing.
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Re: The Legend of Zelda

Post by TimeAxis »

I agree about the tutorial, although I have seen some people do some wild solutions to the tutorial or explore it backwards in ways I didn’t think were possible. Also loving the game. I’m at the point where I could go beat it at any time, but I’m cleaning up the stuff I haven’t finished. Also have my hands full trying to make sense of the lore, because I’m a zelda lore nerd. There are so many tiny details tucked away in this game that either turn certain things on their head, or answer questions people were stumped on for ages. Doubt people here would be interested in me diving into a full timeline dissertation though, so I’ll leave it at that.
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Re: The Legend of Zelda

Post by Spongesonic »

TimeAxis wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:56 am I agree about the tutorial, although I have seen some people do some wild solutions to the tutorial or explore it backwards in ways I didn’t think were possible. Also loving the game. I’m at the point where I could go beat it at any time, but I’m cleaning up the stuff I haven’t finished. Also have my hands full trying to make sense of the lore, because I’m a zelda lore nerd. There are so many tiny details tucked away in this game that either turn certain things on their head, or answer questions people were stumped on for ages. Doubt people here would be interested in me diving into a full timeline dissertation though, so I’ll leave it at that.
I'm actually one of those people that would be interested in a discussion about the timeline placement. If you want my personal opinion on it...
Spoiler : TotK Spoilers :
I'm of the opinion that this game confirms the BotW timeline is a reboot for the series. I think they maaaaybe wanted to keep their foot in the door about it with the last game and leave their options open, but then with TotK decided to go all in with this new timeline idea.

The fact that this game's backstory takes place during the Imprisoning War seems to imply that it takes place in the Downfall Timeline since it calls back to LTTP... except that OoT was meant to be the prequel to LTTP that takes place during the Imprisoning War. Not to mention that the war didn't take place literally right after the founding of Hyrule, considering Minish Cap and Four Swords take place between Skyward Sword and OoT.

I've seen some people try to justify placing it in the old timeline by saying that Ganondorf was sealed away and then revived to take on his OoT form, but that just makes no sense to me since it's heavily implied this is the event where he became Calamity Ganon. I've also seen other people saying that this Imprisoning War is meant to be a completely different one from LTTP, and that this game's backstory takes place after some sort of fall of Hyrule, and that this is some sort of new Hyrule founded long afterwards. That also doesn't ring true to me, because you'd think there'd be some sort of hint that there was an old Hyrule long ago. Mix that with the fact that Ganondorf just doesn't know who Link and Zelda are or what the Master Sword is outside of this game's events and it just seems to all imply none of the previous games happened.

Frankly, if these games are a reboot, then I have to admit it was a long time coming. While I have a lot of attachment to the old timeline, it's also no secret that it was becoming way too convoluted for its own good. I think they actually kept a pretty good handle on it for a while, that is until Wind Waker accidentally retconned LTTP and all the games that take place after it out of existence, and they had to create a third split in the timeline to explain that away. Then that decision made everyone mad because it made no sense and wasn't that well explained. Not to mention that there were so many prequels over the years that it just seemed like we were going backwards more than we were going forwards. I do think it was about time to move on.
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Re: The Legend of Zelda

Post by TimeAxis »

Spongesonic wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:09 pm
TimeAxis wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:56 am I agree about the tutorial, although I have seen some people do some wild solutions to the tutorial or explore it backwards in ways I didn’t think were possible. Also loving the game. I’m at the point where I could go beat it at any time, but I’m cleaning up the stuff I haven’t finished. Also have my hands full trying to make sense of the lore, because I’m a zelda lore nerd. There are so many tiny details tucked away in this game that either turn certain things on their head, or answer questions people were stumped on for ages. Doubt people here would be interested in me diving into a full timeline dissertation though, so I’ll leave it at that.
I'm actually one of those people that would be interested in a discussion about the timeline placement. If you want my personal opinion on it...
Spoiler : TotK Spoilers :
I'm of the opinion that this game confirms the BotW timeline is a reboot for the series. I think they maaaaybe wanted to keep their foot in the door about it with the last game and leave their options open, but then with TotK decided to go all in with this new timeline idea.

The fact that this game's backstory takes place during the Imprisoning War seems to imply that it takes place in the Downfall Timeline since it calls back to LTTP... except that OoT was meant to be the prequel to LTTP that takes place during the Imprisoning War. Not to mention that the war didn't take place literally right after the founding of Hyrule, considering Minish Cap and Four Swords take place between Skyward Sword and OoT.

I've seen some people try to justify placing it in the old timeline by saying that Ganondorf was sealed away and then revived to take on his OoT form, but that just makes no sense to me since it's heavily implied this is the event where he became Calamity Ganon. I've also seen other people saying that this Imprisoning War is meant to be a completely different one from LTTP, and that this game's backstory takes place after some sort of fall of Hyrule, and that this is some sort of new Hyrule founded long afterwards. That also doesn't ring true to me, because you'd think there'd be some sort of hint that there was an old Hyrule long ago. Mix that with the fact that Ganondorf just doesn't know who Link and Zelda are or what the Master Sword is outside of this game's events and it just seems to all imply none of the previous games happened.

Frankly, if these games are a reboot, then I have to admit it was a long time coming. While I have a lot of attachment to the old timeline, it's also no secret that it was becoming way too convoluted for its own good. I think they actually kept a pretty good handle on it for a while, that is until Wind Waker accidentally retconned LTTP and all the games that take place after it out of existence, and they had to create a third split in the timeline to explain that away. Then that decision made everyone mad because it made no sense and wasn't that well explained. Not to mention that there were so many prequels over the years that it just seemed like we were going backwards more than we were going forwards. I do think it was about time to move on.
Alright, well, you’ve opened pandora’s box. There’s no closing it now.
Spoiler : Timeline nerdery :
Nope, not a reboot of the series. At least, not any more than a soft-reboot with the other games still being canon, albeit not excessively relevant.

The Ganondorf seen in TotK is a new male born to the Gerudo, who also happens to be named Ganondorf, completely separate from the one in OOT. (This isn’t the first time that’s happened. It was the case in Four Swords Adventures as well.) TotK’s flashbacks take place waaay after any other game. The “Hyrule” that was founded in that era is not the same Hyrule from the other games, but a new kingdom that shares a name with the old one. It may be confusing, but there’s a lot of evidence for this.

First to prove that both BotW and TotK are not reboots or retellings, here is a direct historical quote from one of the Zora tablets explicitly referencing the events of OOT as having happened in the very distant past:

First, in BOTW:
Long, long ago... In a past more distant that even the Great Calamity or the creation of the Divine Beast Vah Ruta... There was a Zora princess named Ruto. We know that she was an attendant to the Zora patron deity and that she was a fair and lively girl, beloved to all. Around that same time, an evil man with designs on ruling the world appeared, bringing disaster upon Zora's Domain. It is said that Ruto then awoke as a sage, facing this foe alongside the princess of Hyrule and the hero of legend. Her achievements are remembered not only by the Zora, they are also forever etched into the history of Hyrule.
And then, to show that this wasn’t just some one-off easter egg reference (besides the fact that it’s in the context of a historical tablet of which there are like 8 others, all being meant to be taken as genuine historical events) they doubled down on it in TotK:
It is written that long ago there was a strong-willed Zora princess who was as meandering as a winding river. This princess, who was dearly loved by her fellow Zora, was as noble as she was innocent. Her name was Ruto. One day, a powerful and wicked man tried to take over Hyrule and brought great ruin to the once-peaceful Zora's Domain. Our tales speak of fallen Zora soldiers drifting down the river as it sadly reflected the chaotic retreat of the terrified Zora. Princess Ruto bravely fought back her tears as she bore witness to the tragic misery unfolding in the domain. Even amid her heartbreak, the Zora princess did all she could to help the weak and elderly escape. Next she swam against the river's current and climbed the mighty waterfall to challenge her foe. The details of this fight have fallen victim to the haze of time. Few details remain. Still, it is said that she was aided by the princess of Hyrule and the hero of legend, and together they saved Hyrule. So the legend goes. I, Sidon, prince of the Zora, cannot help but ponder these events as I listen to the Zora children play in all their innocence. As Princess Ruto's descendant, it is my fate to carry the torch of her brave acts into tomorrow and beyond. I shall not fail.
These events don’t line up with the flashbacks, as there was no hero of legend who assisted the sages in TotK. The only game they line up with is OOT (And only the Adult Timeline and “Hero is Defeated” Timeline, to be more specific, as the sages never fought Ganon with Link in the child timeline).

That’s also ignoring all the former Amiibo items that have been made canon in TotK by being obtainable in the base game, which reference previous games as having happened in the past in their descriptions. In BotW I dismissed them as non-canon DLC, but now that excuse doesn’t exist.

Next, to prove that the flashbacks in TotK don’t take place between other games with TotK itself still taking place afterward, page 401 of Creating a champion (a companion lore book to BotW which is canon and namedropped the Zonai and many other things from TotK before it came out) states: "According to Gerudo records there has not been another male Gerudo leader since the king who became the Calamity". That means OOT (which we know for a fact is still canon and happened) could not have happened after the Ganondorf seen in TotK became the calamity, as OOT’s Ganondorf was another male leader of the Gerudo.

If you’re looking for a more compelling reason why we don’t see any signs of a previous Hyrule, that’s pretty simple. Both of the two possible Timelines that BotW and TotK could be set in, the Adult Timeline (WW) and the Downfall Timeline (LoZ and AoL) end with Hyrule being completely destroyed. In WW Hyrule is obliterated in a flood by a Triforce wish, likely leaving no trace, with the only surviving member of the Royal Family traveling halfway across the world to form New Hyrule. We have no idea what that little kingdom would be up to, but it would be nowhere near BotW’s Hyrule either way. Then in LoZ and AoL, Hyrule was destroyed by Ganon’s minions. The actual area LoZ takes place in, the Death Mountain region (which is also where BotW’s Hyrule presumably is), is referred to as “Lesser Hyrule” in the Japanese manual of those games, and it also explicitly states that it was completely destroyed, not just once during LoZ, but again when they were trying to rebuild prior to AoL as well. It seems reasonable to conclude that in both of those timelines, the land that would later become BotW’s Hyrule was abandoned, with the original Kingdom leaving to the northeast or wherever Spirit Tracks’ New Hyrule is.

It’s not as if there aren’t any traces of a previous hyrule either. There are a lot of direct references to Skyward Sword’s locations. The Forgotten Temple is widely speculated to be the Sealed Ground, due to its mother goddess statue and many other similarities. The springs of power, wisdom, and courage are also identical in architecture, down to even little details like the lamps matching, with their Skyward Sword versions.

But I think I’ve hammered the point home enough. Like I said, I’m kind of a nerd about this, so I’ve dug into all of this a ton. While there’s no doubt Nintendo intentionally crafted BotW and TotK to be understandable to people who’d never played a Zelda game before (hence soft-reboot), there’s also no denying the absurd amount of explicit continued acknowledgement of the other games still having happened. There was an interview once where Aonuma mentioned that the timeline was generally a creative hurdle for the team when writing a new Zelda story, but that Miyamoto cared a lot about them making sure things fit, so they did so. Somehow people twisted this into “zelda developers say the timeline doesn’t matter”, when in fact they’re saying the opposite, that it matters so much that it can be hard to work around sometimes. In my view, BotW and TotK is their way of making it much easier to work with by essentially shoving all the games way in the distant past to the point where they’re practically just legends at this point, and leaving certain things vague enough to give them wiggle room where they need it.
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