Professor Layton vs Ace Attorney

Discuss video games from Pong to Call of Duty, including Ace Attorney games.

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Ami
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Re: Professor Layton vs Ace Attorney

Post by Ami »

@ Sleuth:
Spoiler : Definitely spoilers :
Yeah, the ten-witness pile-up got especially finicky with the exact methods of questioning processes. And the inevitable problem of "this contradiction also works, but you really want a specific contradiction here with this specific evidence".
@ Enigma
Spoiler : Chapter 4/Case 3 Spoilers :
It's highly problematic for a number of reasons, in that it was obvious from the first voiced cutscene she had and, furthermore, the game's narrative implies:
- that trans/genderqueer people have to be sussed out.
- that being trans/genderqueer is something done under duress, and is a choice
- that being revealing oneself as biologically one gender means that you have hidden tertiary gender markers to pull out to show the world you're female

The game somewhat redeemed itself by having Greyearl be innocent, still likable, and not a huge stereotype like basically most coded-gay and effeminate males in the Ace Attorney series, but... it was very frustrating as a genderqueer person.

Like when someone uses the word "trap". Please don't use that in reference to transsexual/transgender/genderqueer/questioning people.
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Re: Professor Layton vs Ace Attorney

Post by enigma »

Spoiler : Case 3 :
Except Greyerl is none of those? And I don't see how it presents any of that. Greyerl pretended to be a boy, because boys can't be witches. There's no large, social commentary being made by the game. Sometimes, a character is just a character. Frankly, I'd argue you are reading way too much into this.

I don't like seeing characters as their types or genders or whatnot, I prefer to see them as their individual selves. And seeing Greyerl like this is pretty silly, since they are hardly meant to represent a group. I mean, the reason they dressed as a boy is because of fantasy elements which don't really have a bearing on real life.

Still, if you really MUST see Greyerl as a statement, why not look at them in a way that is accurately comparable to their situation. For example, countries where girls are forbidden to work or go to school and so DO have to dress as boys to survive. For example, I believe this is the case in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Basically, I highly doubt Greyerl is meant to be a commentary or imply anything, and it's silly to think so. And if they were, I highly doubt it's a comment on sexuality or such. Bluntly put, you're reading to much into things that aren't there.
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Re: Professor Layton vs Ace Attorney

Post by Sleuth »

So I finished the game.

I think it needs some time to sit with me, but I liked it. Felt fantastic to play a new AA game, and I really loved being able to just sit back and enjoy it. A few things felt out of place at times, but they were more "missteps" than major flaws. I did forgive a lot because of the game's nature, however. I figured from the start that this was not and could not be a "perfect crossover" where every fantasy about the two characters meeting would unfold. In that sense, this game has a lot of parts where the reality didn't match up to the fantasy, but I feel it's unfair to judge it that way.
Spoiler : spoilers for past Layton and AA games :
One of the biggest things I noticed about the game was the callbacks. The game itself didn't shove its references out in the open, but there were LOTS of things that I found from past games, like:
- Parrot-examinations
- the old points system from AA1
- the hallucinogenic gas from Diabolical Box
- sword-fights from the Layton games
- notably, a LOT of similarities to Dual Destinies. The gender-disguised character, resemblances between Darklaw and Aura (not just physically, either), childhood trauma, the whole "defendant believes she did it" thing... I'm beginning to wonder what exactly the deal was there.
Spoiler : regular spoilers for the game :
I liked most of the new characters. They all fit well and skirted the line between entertaining and irritating, barring the Vigilantes, who were all absolutely awful.

Espella is the most important, probably, but I find myself struggling to remember her. She played the role well and I was never really annoyed by her, but she's not really much of a character. I don't know much about her likes, dislikes, or anything like that. I didn't really know what she DID in the town. She was functional, but not interesting.

Darklaw was the most fun to watch. The second I heard her name, I burst out laughing because DARKLAW. My god, that's the most fantastically obvious name for a villain/antagonist. (The reveal at the end actually makes it a tad brilliant, but still) Otherwise, she was fine, and made a very entertaining opponent in court. I actually found myself liking her younger self better, who only appeared for one cutscene.

I actually didn't notice until later, but she's actually a lot like Aura Blackquill, which is interesting to note. Did they like her so much that they decided to use her again in DD? I think the reason I never noticed was because Darklaw was more authoritative and was in charge of things outside her own plans, while Blackquill wasn't really in charge or anything, and only showed up when she needed to. I think Blackquill ultimately left a bigger impression, though. Darklaw's personality could probably have benefited from a few scenes with Espella.

I think Barnham was one of the better ones, his appearance only hampered by the fact that he barely factored in at all for the last part of the game. He was swept aside quickly and I kept waiting for him to return somehow, but ultimately he came off as wasted potential. Constantine was adorable. I was half-expecting him to have been an actual prosecutor, and for the stinger, he'd show up as Phoenix's opponent in regular court. I also expected him to have sort of a bigger turn, where he realizes that burning witches for just existing is kind of rude. That kind of happened, but not to the extend I was hoping.

From the witness side of things, I liked most of them. As I said before, they skirted the line between entertaining and irritating, but I found something to like in most of them.

However, the Vigilantes did NOT, and I will start with them because they were awful. The mob trial quickly lost its appeal to me the second "10 witness lineup" came onscreen, which, while visually impressive, was not something that was fun to play through. All the vigilantes were basically one-trick ponies with little character or entertaining qualities. Their designs were unappealing and generally lousy, and Wordsmith was one of them for absolutely no reason. Also, weird thing: the Head Vigilante always spoke with the female text voice, so I half-expected him to be another witch-in-hiding somehow. Ultimately, though, he was just like the rest of the vigilantes; terrible, boring, and pointless. I think literally 90% of them was window dressing. (If you wanted to know which one I hated most, I'd have to go with the tiny one because of the constant snot dribble. Ugh.)

On the side of witnesses I liked, I found Emeer Punchenbaug to be pretty great. I jokingly refer to him as "Layton and Wright's Greatest Foe" for singlehandedly turning the entire court back on them, and repeatedly screwing up peoples' plans. He was bemusing and slowly seeing how he'd fudged things up was a great pleasure. Some of the other witnesses were bemusing. The rest were just on that fine line between "meh" and "okay shut up now".

On the witches side of things, I liked both Kira and Greyerl. Both were presented as sympathetic characters, making the Witch Trials that much more threatening and immoral. Kira was probably more entertaining for her breakdowns and dark-side. They were also both plot-relevant, so that was nice. Greyerl was also pretty cool, and is probably the most sympathetic character in the game. She's very likable, even when you're against her, and I found myself hoping she didn't get torched.

Storyteller was certainly... there. He had a presence, and was important to the story, but I think he faded a tad too much into the background to be interesting. I think his main role was to explain everything to the audience, and just be cryptic and menacing otherwise. I think honestly 90% of everything he says is exposition, and the other 10% is "cryptic villain-sounding things". I particularly loved how he just casually brings up by the end "Oh I was dying of a rare disease" and then literally two seconds later he reveals there was a cure. Brilliant.

Oh and that brings me to the plot. Oh, the plot holes, the GLORIOUS, GLORIOUS plot holes. Plot holes large enough to drive a truck through! Plot holes so large and wide and totally expected from a Layton game. The first thing that comes to mind is the "hallucinogenic gas" thing that was borrowed from Diabolical Box, which was honestly the least of the plot-holey things. Honestly, I wouldn't have had a problem with most of these if the reveals hadn't all been crammed into the final few seconds of the game. There was no indication of the giant machines anywhere else throughout the game, and in spite of never seeing them, wouldn't someone at least HEAR them? In fact, it would probably be a lot better if there was strange, gear-grinding sounds throughout the whole game that nobody could explain; then BOOM, giant claw-hands! Would've made the reveal so much cleaner. (Also, Luke; took a crash course where? Do they just leave "How to pilot giant invisible claws" lying around the place?)

Honestly, I didn't expect them to go the "Magic isn't real" ending. I fully expected that it WAS another world, since that was basically the ONLY way to seal up the metric buttloads of plot holes. I even told my brother that there was no way that they COULD pull that.... And look how wrong I was. I don't know if the game would have been better if magic WAS real, but if nothing else, the twist did take me by surprise. (This twist also makes me think: either the Judge got SO fed up with his life that he agreed to be hypnotized, or that there's someone who looks EXACTLY LIKE HIM that's been hypnotized.)

On the side of twists I DID like, I actually liked the one with the Belltower reveal. It made a lot of sense... Until you wonder how nobody ever bumped into it or anything, but okay whatever, it looked cool.

Overall, I greatly enjoyed it. This was the game I bought the 3DS for, and it did not disappoint. Were there plot holes? OH GOD YES. Do I care? Not particularly. The game was still plenty enjoyable for the sheer awesomeness there.
I give this game 5 pointer fingers out of a Top Hat.

Edit: OH AND HOW COULD I FORGET, the cutscenes were FREAKING FANTASTIC. Especially after DD, whose cutscenes were just kinda... there. The animation is really darn beautiful, and I really love the beautiful set pieces they have. The look of this game alone is worth the price of admission. I also found some conceptual "Dark Layton" and "Dark Phoenix" artwork that's absolutely amazing. This game's just damn gorgeous UUURRGHHH
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Re: Professor Layton vs Ace Attorney

Post by mAc Chaos »

I'll read everybody's thoughts soon, but I just wanted to say the game was amazing.

Until the last trial. Then it was a train wreck.
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Re: Professor Layton vs Ace Attorney

Post by mAc Chaos »

OK now for more thoughts:
Spoiler : THE ENDING :
Zacharias was shaping up to be a great prosecutor. He could have had a great epiphany, they had all of the buildup there, there was even his great moment going undercover and finally figuring out something was up with Darklaw. But then he just gets dropped from the plot out of nowhere. It was such a HUGE waste. That was probably the biggest letdown.

Then there was the whole "LOL IT WAS A FAKE ALL ALONG" twist, which is the same in every Layton game. You'd think they would try something else for a change.

And the last trial wasn't even a trial. It was more like a giant expository scene once the Storyteller appeared. There was no crime either, which robbed the trial of any tension or interest.

Admittedly, there were still lots of feels to go around during the revelations, but it was a lot less intense and memorable than it could have been.

The game ended up being a huge wasted opportunity.

Also why do people always throw a fuss over trans stuff every time any Ace Attorney character does the old "IT WAS A BOY/GIRL" trick? It has nothing to do with trans issues at all. It's just someone who's going undercover.
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Re: Professor Layton vs Ace Attorney

Post by Gizmological »

I'm very late to this party, but after finishing the game a couple of days ago, I just have to talk about this. I haven't read any reviews past some of the posts on this thread, so I'm not sure what the general opinion is on this game.
Spoiler : PL vs AA (duh) and PL: Spectre's Call :
I actually kind of loved this game. That is, until the fourth trial started. And then the big plot twist happened. And then they blew it. They blew the whole thing. I REALLY wish they would have just kept the "alternate reality where magic is real" thing. Instead, we get "no its england and magic is fake lol gotcha" thing. And let's face it, most of what they use to explain this mess might as well have been magic. Now, I'm not too familiar with Prof Layton games. I've only played Spectre's Call so far. Now, that game's big twist involved a dinosaur. Sure, it was insane. But I'm willing to suspend my disbelief and accept that nessie is living in the lake. Same with PL vs AA. I could accept that magic existed in this alternate reality. Hell, I could accept that it existed in the regular reality. We have spirit channelling and the loch ness monster. Why not, right? But instead, PLvsAA tried to explain away the whole magic thing. And instead, we get a bunch of impossible BS. Here are just a few of my issues.

If these invisible cranes have been placed in every possible location where a witch MIGHT cast a spell, how has nobody ever just walked into one? Hell, how have they never heard them? Apparently all of Mr. Cantabella's machinery is quiet as a god damn mouse. What if a witch casts a spell that warrants one of those things indoors? Do the citizens of Labyrinthia have invisible cranes hidden in their living rooms?

Speaking of invisibility, even I accepted the fact that everyone was hypnotised to not be able to see a specific colour, how does that give everyone X-ray vision? If you can't see a colour, your brain just wouldn't register it. It wouldn't give you the ability to see THROUGH the freaking crane.

Who drew that big picture of the dragon under the library? If the Beldukes and Cantabellas were the only ones who were around back then, does that mean one of them put it down there? Espella is the only one who even thought it was a dragon to begin with. Did SHE draw it?

Why did the market explode? Who was behind that "spell"? And why wasn't the flower girl wearing her invisible robe when she set that up anyway?

WHO HIT THE CHEF? Why was Darklaw in England? What was the point of that entire plotpoint? Did the writers just forget about that part?

And, possibly the biggest problem I have with this whole thing, if the shade knock everybody out with their silver bells for the set up every time a witch casts a spell, how did NOBODY notice that? Did none of the witches or witnesses know they were unconscious at the time? Surely they would have needed to pick themselves up off the floor afterwards, right? Do none of the witches notice that time suddenly jumps forward every time the cast a spell? Do the witnesses? How has there never been a case where a witness wasn't in range of the bell but then walked over to the scene and saw a bunch of unconscious people on the floor?



There's plenty more for me to say. I could go on about how there was no logic or reason to a good chunk of the cross examinations, or how some of the characters had terrible voice acting (looking at you, Espella) but I can't be bothered to go through that too. Like I say, I really enjoyed this game for the first three cases. Only the final case and the "grand finale" really ruined it for me. And if nothing else, the soundtrack for this game is probably one of my favourites in the entire series.
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