April 2011 - Ami

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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Ami »

Shadowsleuth wrote:I understand you don't care for AAI. What are your thoughts on AAI2?
From what I've heard (keep in mind, I've tried to keep myself as unspoiled as possible), it's ambitious, I'll give it that much. However, that works to its disadvantage, given that it a.) still has Kay around, b.) does not consider Edgeworth's previous actions in AAI non-canon, c.) is built upon AAI, which sucks. It had a "chess" system, TWO playable characters to develop, multiple rivals coming in, et cetera. While the chance to play as Gregory is nice, and Edgeworth's motivations to become a prosecutor are explored (Didn't we do this already? He was raised by von Karma, and hated criminals ever since his father was murdered. How much exploring does this need?), it's not enough, in the end.

I think another problem with the AAI series is that Edgeworth has already been developed so much, that the writers seem a bit confused. Instead of pushing forward, they're back-tracking and exploring already developed character development (i.e. why he became a prosecutor, his ethics, etc.). The worst part is that AAI gave the player the choice on whether or not to use illegal evidence, and using illegal evidence was the CORRECT choice? This baffles the mind, as we've previously established that Edgeworth plays strictly by the books, even if he will find every loophole possible. There was no loophole. Furthermore, we don't see much of Lang making changes. In fact, most of the development we see from Lang is told to us by Shi-na, which is almost as telling the story via text-scroll, a la many bad movies. The most we see Lang develop (from the player's PoV) is at the very end of the game. Even then, not much really changes.

One of the major problems of AAI is that it feels like the player is still a defense attorney. Let us review...

Phoenix/Apollo:
* Sees their client in trouble, and the client is (most times) innocent.
* The attorney decides to take on their case.
* The attorney then goes to gather evidence, ferreting out the truth from the lies.
* The attorney then confronts witnesses and suspects with the evidence, to find the leads that will reveal the true culprit, bring them to justice, and exonerate his client.

Edgeworth:
* Edgeworth sees someone falsely arrested, and figures him/her to be innocent.
* Edgeworth then vows to prevent them from getting arrested.
* Edgeworth then goes to gather evidence, ferreting out the truth from the lies.
* Edgeworth then confronts witnesses and suspects with the evidence, to find the leads that will reveal the true culprit, bring them to justice, and exonerate the person Edgeworth has vowed to protect.

Edgeworth acts entirely like a defense attorney the entire game. He defends arrested people as if they were his clients. Furthermore, you look at the argument system, and it's just a renamed version of the court system. All you do is replace "rebuttal" with "cross-examination", et cetera, and you haven't changed a thing. Edgeworth might as well be in the courtroom at this rate.

Furthermore, the Logic and Deduction systems are just laughable. The Logic system is handled in such a way that it connects two thoughts the player has already connected. The fact that Edgeworth (a genius, mind you) needs help from the player to figure out that a gun was used on a victim that was shot is simply insulting to the player (even if Edgeworth didn't have the "genius" status). Deduction is also a carry-over from the court section. What was "look at this picture, point, present evidence" now becomes "look at this crime scene, point, present evidence". How original.

Edgeworth's relation to Kay is also baffling. Edgeworth hates criminals. Yet, at every turn, Kay proclaims and confesses she is a PROFESSIONAL THIEF. Even if it's "to steal the truth" (Really? I never thought something could beat "unlocking the truth", but fan disappointment is always able to be met), she is committing (at the very least) vigilantism, which is against the law in both the US and Japan (the latter being the justice and judicial system the AA series is based off of). She barely contributes anything beyond her high-tech "Little Thief" (in an age where VHS cassette tapes are still commonplace), which doesn't do anything a supposedly genius prosecutor couldn't do in his head. Furthermore, any development she's supposed to have is shoved into TWO OF THE FIVE cases, appearing in Episodes 3 and 5, the first two establishing Edgeworth and the game's systems, and episode 4 being a flash back where Kay's relation to Edgeworth is introduced (but no real development actually happens). And Ema is there! If ANYONE would have a high-tech gizmo, it'd be her! In fact, one could entirely eliminate Kay, and there would be VERY LITTLE change in the storyline.

Need I also point out how the translation team has become increasingly sloppy since T&T? It is simply unacceptable that a game about A GENIUS PROSECUTOR has so many grammatical and spelling errors.

Furthermore, character designs range from surprisingly appealing to outright lazy. Mack Rell and the fat Mask DeMasque wannabe are so poorly designed, it baffles the mind. They look like they were fan-made by a two years-old boy.

I will say, however, that there are SOME aspects of AAI that I liked. The music wasn't horrible (though Revival was abused like it was in T&T), and the graphics were a step up even from the already impressive Apollo Justice. Though the Yatagarasu storyline crashed and burned like a deformed bird, you can tell there was at least SOME effort placed into constructing the story (though the character assassination of Edgeworth and other beloved characters has been far from going beyond notice!).





Honestly? If these characters had been entirely dissociated from the Ace Attorney series, and were entirely original characters, this game might have hit "mediocre" status. However, these writers and developers clearly missed their mark when carrying previous characters to this game.

However, having not played the game, I cannot make an OFFICIAL judgment on it. Doesn't mean I still can't mourn for the days Shu Takumi was still on the team. But since AAI 2 insists on keeping the events of the first AAI, it will be fundamentally flawed no matter what.
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Sleuth »

Well, I'm glad that you at least have well-founded reasons for not liking AAI. I don't agree on some points, but I don't really care to argue...
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Milkmanfire »

@genodragon1
Spoiler : :
genodragon1 wrote:
Shadowsleuth wrote:I understand you don't care for AAI. What are your thoughts on AAI2?
From what I've heard (keep in mind, I've tried to keep myself as unspoiled as possible), it's ambitious, I'll give it that much. However, that works to its disadvantage, given that it a.) still has Kay around, b.) does not consider Edgeworth's previous actions in AAI non-canon, c.) is built upon AAI, which sucks. It had a "chess" system, TWO playable characters to develop, multiple rivals coming in, et cetera. While the chance to play as Gregory is nice, and Edgeworth's motivations to become a prosecutor are explored (Didn't we do this already? He was raised by von Karma, and hated criminals ever since his father was murdered. How much exploring does this need?), it's not enough, in the end.

I think another problem with the AAI series is that Edgeworth has already been developed so much, that the writers seem a bit confused. Instead of pushing forward, they're back-tracking and exploring already developed character development (i.e. why he became a prosecutor, his ethics, etc.). The worst part is that AAI gave the player the choice on whether or not to use illegal evidence, and using illegal evidence was the CORRECT choice? This baffles the mind, as we've previously established that Edgeworth plays strictly by the books, even if he will find every loophole possible. There was no loophole. Furthermore, we don't see much of Lang making changes. In fact, most of the development we see from Lang is told to us by Shi-na, which is almost as telling the story via text-scroll, a la many bad movies. The most we see Lang develop (from the player's PoV) is at the very end of the game. Even then, not much really changes.

One of the major problems of AAI is that it feels like the player is still a defense attorney. Let us review...

Phoenix/Apollo:
* Sees their client in trouble, and the client is (most times) innocent.
* The attorney decides to take on their case.
* The attorney then goes to gather evidence, ferreting out the truth from the lies.
* The attorney then confronts witnesses and suspects with the evidence, to find the leads that will reveal the true culprit, bring them to justice, and exonerate his client.

Edgeworth:
* Edgeworth sees someone falsely arrested, and figures him/her to be innocent.
* Edgeworth then vows to prevent them from getting arrested.
* Edgeworth then goes to gather evidence, ferreting out the truth from the lies.
* Edgeworth then confronts witnesses and suspects with the evidence, to find the leads that will reveal the true culprit, bring them to justice, and exonerate the person Edgeworth has vowed to protect.

Edgeworth acts entirely like a defense attorney the entire game. He defends arrested people as if they were his clients. Furthermore, you look at the argument system, and it's just a renamed version of the court system. All you do is replace "rebuttal" with "cross-examination", et cetera, and you haven't changed a thing. Edgeworth might as well be in the courtroom at this rate.

Furthermore, the Logic and Deduction systems are just laughable. The Logic system is handled in such a way that it connects two thoughts the player has already connected. The fact that Edgeworth (a genius, mind you) needs help from the player to figure out that a gun was used on a victim that was shot is simply insulting to the player (even if Edgeworth didn't have the "genius" status). Deduction is also a carry-over from the court section. What was "look at this picture, point, present evidence" now becomes "look at this crime scene, point, present evidence". How original.

Edgeworth's relation to Kay is also baffling. Edgeworth hates criminals. Yet, at every turn, Kay proclaims and confesses she is a PROFESSIONAL THIEF. Even if it's "to steal the truth" (Really? I never thought something could beat "unlocking the truth", but fan disappointment is always able to be met), she is committing (at the very least) vigilantism, which is against the law in both the US and Japan (the latter being the justice and judicial system the AA series is based off of). She barely contributes anything beyond her high-tech "Little Thief" (in an age where VHS cassette tapes are still commonplace), which doesn't do anything a supposedly genius prosecutor couldn't do in his head. Furthermore, any development she's supposed to have is shoved into TWO OF THE FIVE cases, appearing in Episodes 3 and 5, the first two establishing Edgeworth and the game's systems, and episode 4 being a flash back where Kay's relation to Edgeworth is introduced (but no real development actually happens). And Ema is there! If ANYONE would have a high-tech gizmo, it'd be her! In fact, one could entirely eliminate Kay, and there would be VERY LITTLE change in the storyline.

Need I also point out how the translation team has become increasingly sloppy since T&T? It is simply unacceptable that a game about A GENIUS PROSECUTOR has so many grammatical and spelling errors.

Furthermore, character designs range from surprisingly appealing to outright lazy. Mack Rell and the fat Mask DeMasque wannabe are so poorly designed, it baffles the mind. They look like they were fan-made by a two years-old boy.

I will say, however, that there are SOME aspects of AAI that I liked. The music wasn't horrible (though Revival was abused like it was in T&T), and the graphics were a step up even from the already impressive Apollo Justice. Though the Yatagarasu storyline crashed and burned like a deformed bird, you can tell there was at least SOME effort placed into constructing the story (though the character assassination of Edgeworth and other beloved characters has been far from going beyond notice!).





Honestly? If these characters had been entirely dissociated from the Ace Attorney series, and were entirely original characters, this game might have hit "mediocre" status. However, these writers and developers clearly missed their mark when carrying previous characters to this game.

However, having not played the game, I cannot make an OFFICIAL judgment on it. Doesn't mean I still can't mourn for the days Shu Takumi was still on the team. But since AAI 2 insists on keeping the events of the first AAI, it will be fundamentally flawed no matter what.
WOW I....I feel like detective Gumshoe now, pal. :gumshoe:

But out of the things I do and don't disagree on the Edgeworth being a defense attorney is definitely where I can agree! It doesn't at all feel like I am a prosecutor I just feel like a defense attorney outside the courts. Don't get me wrong I don't dislike AAI, like you do, but that point I think we can all agree on is that yes Edgeworth seems like a Defense attorney in the only time I can say he really feels like a prosecutor is the final boss of AAI one.
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Bad Player »

So... where exactly does Maya/Desiree come from? .__.



And finally, the (your) truth about AAI~

First of all, you have some incorrect info in there. Silly Geno, you don't get a choice about the illegal evidence in I-5! They ask you if you want to use it, but make you use it no matter what :awesome: (Yeah that part was >_> to me too)


Anyway, you're criticizing an Ace Attorney game for using... Ace Attorney gameplay? Huh? Okay so standard around and having deduction battles and demanding to see proof and the contradictions in the crime scene isn't that realistic, but since when is AA realistic? xD I also disagree with what you said about it played just like you're a DA. Edgey stumbles upon the crime scenes (as opposed to being hired by a client) and pursues the truth about the cases. And it's not like he's vowed to protect someone; he just isn't satisfied with the case against the person, and so continues to investigate. In every case except I-4 (and arguably, even that one) the person under suspicion changes as the case progresses; Edgey doesn't protect one person. I also think your criticism of the Logic System for requiring the 'genius' Edgey to connect simple logic dots because the entire gameplay of Ace Attorney is connecting the dots for the main character; you may as well criticize the deduction segments for requiring the player to tell the attorney which evidence to present, or cross-examinations/arguments for making the player tell the attorney which statements to press.
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Mimi »

...Your argument is delicious~

I thought that the game wasn't so bad. Okay, so Kay came out of nowhere and there were probably grammatical errors I didn't spot (I'm replaying all the PW games because I have no life and I've discovered so many freakin' typos it's killing my inner soul) but the game isn't like... ahem. Yeah.

What would you do if someone accuses of you?
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Sleuth »

Not to interrupt the previous question, but I'm really curious:
How did you become a moderator?
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by TKinhonipei »

Question: Why did you change your name to Ami, Mystic Ami? :pearl:
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Ami »

Shadowsleuth wrote:Not to interrupt the previous question, but I'm really curious:
How did you become a moderator?
I'm pretty sure it's answered in the interview, but I'll answer again. Ghaleon was the first moderator in existence. The job was VERY stressful back then (more so than now), and Ghaleon eventually couldn't take it anymore. Then Trucy became mod, but the work load became too much for her schedule (and stress), so eventually, I became mod with alternating Ghaleon and Trucy, and eventually I was moderator WITH Ghaleon and Trucy (all three at once). Mouse became a "junior mod" for a while with minor mod powers, abused them, and was promptly tossed out of mod status. After I handled all the major troll matters, I decided a vacation was in order. I still checked in on the site every now and then, but I didn't contribute much. When I started to become active again, Meph, Tap, and Daniel were also moderators. They're a fine bunch, and we cover each other well.
Mimi Mika wrote:...Your argument is delicious~

I thought that the game wasn't so bad. Okay, so Kay came out of nowhere and there were probably grammatical errors I didn't spot (I'm replaying all the PW games because I have no life and I've discovered so many freakin' typos it's killing my inner soul) but the game isn't like... ahem. Yeah.

What would you do if someone accuses of you?
I assume you mean "if an attorney, detective, or prosecutor accused me". I'd comply the best of my ability.
TKHawaiianAZN wrote:Question: Why did you change your name to Ami, Mystic Ami? :pearl:
I've always liked the name Ami, ever since I was a little child. I first heard the name (though pronounced "Amy" in the American version) in Sailor Moon, my first anime. Mercury was always my favorite, I don't know why. Ami translates to "beauty" in Japanese, and I even used it for my original character Ami Collins. If I were female, that'd definitely be the name I'd want.

@ BP: Yeah, BP? It's not that I don't like it using mechanics from AA games, I didn't like it using mechanics from AA under a different name and trying to peddle it as something new. That's like me putting a label on Pepsi that says "MEGA AWESOME SEQUEL PEPSI", but it's just regular Pepsi.

He vows to protect people. He jumps in to protect the straight-laced airline attendant with nothing but OH MY GUT THINKS SO. He isn't satisfied with arrests like Nick and Polly weren't satisfied with their clients being arraigned, so what's the difference? All it does is add false tension in by attempting to add a ticking clock to every situation, which quickly loses its effect. Detective/prosecutor shows are about finding the culprit, not acting like defense attorneys to falsely arrested suspects.

As for the logic system, of course the game is about connecting the dots. But it's never so literal as it is with the Logic system, where one has to connect "thought A" to "situation B" to progress. It feels clunky and unnecessary. It'd be like if I stopped an episode of The Shadow to ask Lamont Cranston if a guy he's tailing is five feet in front of him, and he couldn't keep pursuing unless he told me that he was five feet behind him.

In contrast, the cross-examinations are vital for the story-telling element of a law/detective storyline. the Logic calls for the audience to connect simple facts that they have already thought through, and only have a true bearing on Edgeworth and his thoughts, akin to being the electric impulse that tells his brain that two thoughts are connected. The cross-examination calls for the player to contradict lies and misconceptions with facts to find more facts that will eventually lead to the true culprit, which surprises the character, and hopefully, the player. One may as well create a game where you are the electric impulse from the occipital lobe carrying information to other parts of the brain to process something that has been seen. RIVETING. >__>
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by E.D.Revolution »

Hey MEPH! Can we change the whole interview to reflect Ami instead of Geno? :calisto:
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Bad Player »

Ami wrote:It's not that I don't like it using mechanics from AA games, I didn't like it using mechanics from AA under a different name and trying to peddle it as something new. That's like me putting a label on Pepsi that says "MEGA AWESOME SEQUEL PEPSI", but it's just regular Pepsi.
Hmm... It never seemed to me like it was trying to peddle it as something new :o They added the logic system, and let you physically run around the crime scene instead of having a static background... but beyond that it's like an AA game, and I think they presented it as "An AA game beyond those things". Besides, calling them cross-examinations out of court would've just been stupid :P
He vows to protect people. He jumps in to protect the straight-laced airline attendant with nothing but OH MY GUT THINKS SO. He isn't satisfied with arrests like Nick and Polly weren't satisfied with their clients being arraigned, so what's the difference? All it does is add false tension in by attempting to add a ticking clock to every situation, which quickly loses its effect. Detective/prosecutor shows are about finding the culprit, not acting like defense attorneys to falsely arrested suspects.
So (especially post-T&T) Edgey's not allowed to do anything based on gut/feeling? And you say it's a false ticking clock... but in the AA world, once the person is arrested, that's pretty much it, so in terms of getting the right guy... that clock is kinda really there. And isn't eliminating suspects part of finding the real culprit?
As for the logic system, of course the game is about connecting the dots. But it's never so literal as it is with the Logic system, where one has to connect "thought A" to "situation B" to progress. It feels clunky and unnecessary. It'd be like if I stopped an episode of The Shadow to ask Lamont Cranston if a guy he's tailing is five feet in front of him, and he couldn't keep pursuing unless he told me that he was five feet behind him.

In contrast, the cross-examinations are vital for the story-telling element of a law/detective storyline. the Logic calls for the audience to connect simple facts that they have already thought through, and only have a true bearing on Edgeworth and his thoughts, akin to being the electric impulse that tells his brain that two thoughts are connected. The cross-examination calls for the player to contradict lies and misconceptions with facts to find more facts that will eventually lead to the true culprit, which surprises the character, and hopefully, the player. One may as well create a game where you are the electric impulse from the occipital lobe carrying information to other parts of the brain to process something that has been seen. RIVETING. >__>
I don't see the big deal about the logic system being internal processes. And considering you can usually connect the info once you get it (provided you have the complementary piece), it isn't really info you've "already thought through"; it's a bit too soon for that ;) And I don't see what's so wrong about thinking through the info in-game; it didn't seem like a boring retread to me. There were also some 'deductions' in the logic system that I don't think I'd rather have done a different way; for example, the murder weapon in case 2... the only other way that could've been done would've been Edgey just telling us or a super obvious and easy multiple choice question, both of which would've been zzzzzz.



...I think we're rapidly approaching the point where we're going to have to just agree to disagree ;)
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Sleuth »

Personally, I found the confrontations to be a little more... Direct. It was more like taking down an agrument rather than a testimony, which is still pretty similar, but is still fun.

I DO agree that at some points the Logic was rather lame.
Spoiler : :
For example, in Episode 5, you had to connect the dots that a butterfly handled knife was connected to Bahbal, when we already established the connection between them, and again when you had to figure out why Franziska was there, even though it's quite obvious.
Despite that, I still like it. But that's fine either way.
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Meph »

E.D.Revolution wrote:Hey MEPH! Can we change the whole interview to reflect Ami instead of Geno? :calisto:
Lol. Yes, Geno, why did you have to change your name AFTER this interview? :P I'll edit the title and put a note that her name was changed.
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Koda »

Meph wrote:
E.D.Revolution wrote:Hey MEPH! Can we change the whole interview to reflect Ami instead of Geno? :calisto:
Lol. Yes, Geno, why did you have to change your name AFTER this interview? :P I'll edit the title and put a note that her name was changed.
Her name? :calisto:
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Meph »

Ami prefers to be referred to by female pronouns. :)
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Re: Member of the Month: April 2011

Post by Meph »

Here's the next riddle:

Lost where the Sun sets last.
Found where the Sun rises first.
The knowledge spreads.
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