Gameboard/General Mystery

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Mathias_Trueman
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Mathias_Trueman »

Time to post my theory!
Spoiler : *Caption* :
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(Hopefully my thoughts will compile sooner or later xD)
Also;
Spoiler : I know what you meant but watch out for wording :
By your wording of Intruder the police didn't arrive until May 15th :P
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : @Mathias_Trueman :
Whoops, eheheheh... now fixed. And best of fortune with your theory!
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Calvinball »

(Legal double post)
Spoiler : General :
For those interested, kwando1313 has approved Beatrice von Karma sticking around and answering anyone's questions about the gameboard, mystery, or story. Anyone who is still interested in trying to solve the mystery, however, is free to ignore Beatrice's remarks; everything will continue to remain in spoilers, of course.
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Mathias_Trueman »

Spoiler : Theory 1 :
Image
The culprit must be Bernkastel or Kannon. Either one of them could have slipped out of each other’s sight for a moment. Between Kannon and Bernkastel, the latter has the more tools to ensure the murder took place, so this will be based off of her being the culprit.

The withholding of information deemed irrelevant does not make one an accomplice. Therefore if either Kannon or Bernkastel has a gap in the time before, after, or during their ‘business,’ not mentioning such a thing can be considered ’irrelevant’ considering Kyrie’s study giving the illusion of perfection. In the case that Bernkastel left for the restroom or something it would be especially irrelevant considering Bernkastel’s statement (pg33) is generic enough despite the follow-up statements implying otherwise.

For the purpose of this theory, I will assume that Bernkastel was always under observation during the time after Edgeworth met her at the entrance up until she left to do business with Kannon (and interpret that this was intentional). Therefore, she could only have committed the crime after she left to supposedly conduct her business.

The murder was meticulously planned by the culprit.

The culprit is Bernkastel.

Kyrie was not always awake during the time period after she left to go study and the time she was discovered by Erika, Edgeworth, and Rudolf. Kyrie would not admit to being asleep in fear of being punished by her mother. Withholding such information does not make one an accomplice unless she knew she had been put to sleep intentionally by the culprit to commit the crime (she didn't).

Bernkastel could control Kyrie’s study habits to ensure she would be asleep during the time of the murder or use a sleeping pill (or equivalent) to guarantee she was asleep at the right time.

Bernkastel could slip sleeping pills into the tea (or some other thing that has the same purpose) by either doing so before tea was served, during the serving, or after the cups were served.

Bernkastel could knock out Edgeworth with chloroform (or some equivalent) and leave him in his study.

Bernkastel ensured she would have an alibi when Franziska was killed by being with Kannon for the duration, but had an opportunity to slip away during this time period (or during the transition between tea and the business).

Bernkastel planned on the Franziska being discovered after Kyrie’s study time was over and framing Edgeworth, who had no alibi for the time of the murder, claiming he killed her outside the study and then moved her there after Kyrie was finished.

Edgeworth was invited by Bernkastel specifically with the purpose of framing him, and was not intended to be invited by Erika.

The discovery of the corpse occurred earlier than the Culprit had wished for. (The culprit wanted the body to be discovered after Kyrie finished studying, not during her study.)


The following is a blue jab not necessarily related to the theory above (yet) but if Kyrie was put to sleep by the Culprit through direct means, such as sleeping pills, it could have been done through the tea she was offered. (Rudolf, on pg23, states that the only people excluded from being served tea are Edgeworth and Franziska, therefore Kyrie, Shannon and Kannon were at least offered Tea.) Kyrie being served tea does not directly create any contradictions depending on the method served, when it was served, and if it was the only thing that caused Kyrie to sleep within her study period.
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : @Mathias_Trueman :
Image

Ooh, another person trying to solve the crime, this time independently? How delightful! The duel can continue!

Hee hee... It's a very thorough explanation. But is it true?

Bernkastel had no opportunity to drug the tea with anything without anyone else in the parlor noticing. Before the tea was served in the parlor, Shannon was with it and would've noticed if Bernkastel drugged it. While the tea was being served in the parlor, everyone in the parlor had a clear view of each other, as they sat in an approximate circle. Shannon held each cup of tea and associated saucer herself and handed them to each person who drank tea that day herself. Had Bernkastel tried to drug the tea then, it would've been obvious she was doing so to those present. After the tea was served in the parlor, everyone in the parlor still had a clear view of one another, and if Bernkastel tried to drug the tea then it would've been obvious she was doing so to those present in the parlor.

Hee hee hee... but there's still Kanon, isn't there? You'll probably propose a new blue truth wherein he is the killer next? Well don't be too hasty!

Bernkastel and Kanon left to conduct their business together immediately after tea. There was no "transition" time during which either Bernkastel or Kanon were alone.

Bernkastel and Kanon never left each others' presence during the time in which Bernkastel said they were conducting business. By this we mean that they were always in the same room as each other. They were not necessarily always in sight of each other, though they were certainly always in earshot of each other.


Bernkastel and Kanon give each other perfect alibis for the crime!
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Mathias_Trueman »

I like this game already...
Spoiler : Theory 1 (continued) :
Image
"Your truth is powerful, Witch, but it is not as perfect as your last name should imply!"
Calvinball wrote:Bernkastel had no opportunity to drug the tea with anything without anyone else in the parlor noticing. Before the tea was served in the parlor, Shannon was with it and would've noticed if Bernkastel drugged it. While the tea was being served in the parlor, everyone in the parlor had a clear view of each other, as they sat in an approximate circle. Shannon held each cup of tea and associated saucer herself and handed them to each person who drank tea that day herself. Had Bernkastel tried to drug the tea then, it would've been obvious she was doing so to those present. After the tea was served in the parlor, everyone in the parlor still had a clear view of one another, and if Bernkastel tried to drug the tea then it would've been obvious she was doing so to those present in the parlor.
By your wording of Red Truth, if someone did not drink the tea they were offered, anyone could have served it to them.

By your wording of Red Truth, it is possible for Bernkastel to drug the teabags beforehand, thus drugging the tea indirectly without contradiction.

By your wording of Red Truth, it is possible for Bernkastel to have left the parlor during the time tea was served for a short while and committed the crime, then returned.

Calvinball wrote:Bernkastel and Kanon left to conduct their business together immediately after tea. There was no "transition" time during which either Bernkastel or Kanon were alone.

Bernkastel and Kanon never left each others' presence during the time in which Bernkastel said they were conducting business. By this we mean that they were always in the same room as each other. They were not necessarily always in sight of each other, though they were certainly always in earshot of each other.
By your wording of Red Truth, every time Bernkastel and Kannon entered a new room, they entered the room at the exact same time.

By your wording of Red Truth, Bernkastel and Kannon did not have to be in the Parlor when Tea ended so long as their business began immediately when tea ended.


Bernkastel can still be the culprit so long as either;
1. She left the Parlor during the tea time period and returned before tea time ended. Towards the end of the tea time, Kyrie left the room to commit the murder, not necessarily returning before tea time ended, but definitely beginning business with Kannon immediately when tea time ended.
2. She could move about the mansion and commit the crime without alerting Kannon to her actions. The business being conducted between Kannon and Bernkastel was such that Bernkastel and Kannon moved around the house as she committed the murder without Kannon's knowledge. It is possible for such a set of occurrences to be possible without making Kannon an accomplice.

:takethat:
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : @Mathias_Trueman :
Image

Whoopsie! Looks like there's still a few holes we need to fill, doesn't it? Hee hee hee...

Everyone who was offered tea that day drank the tea they were offered. And no one pretended to drink tea either!

While your teabag theory is intriguing, this new red truth exposes the fatal flaw! How could Bernkastel have possibly known whether her tea was drugged or not? If she was the culprit and this was her plan, it could've easily been foiled right then and there through her being drugged, thereby incapacitating herself!


Furthermore...

Rudolf, Erika, and Bernkastel didn't leave the parlor during tea time. It would've been terribly rude to do so, after all.

"By your wording of Red Truth, every time Bernkastel and Kannon entered a new room, they entered the room at the exact same time."

More or less. Not exact exact, but at least humanly "exact." "Business," as we're calling it, lasted until Shannon came across the two of them after collecting the tea set.


So your first theory on how Bernkastel can still be the culprit is now shattered! As for your second...

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How on earth could Bernkastel possibly kill Franziska with a gun while Kanon was in the same room as her without Kanon noticing in some manner? Had Kanon borne witness to the crime in such a manner, I don't see how he possibly could've ruled whatever he noticed as irrelevant.

Besides, Bernkastel has no way to drug Kyrie, as you hypothesized she did, with these new red truths. Try again!
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by PhoenixRises123 »

Wow! that was a very good Gameboard set-up you made. I'm interested indeed.... :mia:
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Mathias_Trueman »

Spoiler : Theory 1 (continued) :
...Just kidding!
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While it is possible to continue down the Bernkastel rabbit hole by poking holes and exceptions in your response, I can’t ignore the fact that there is no reason for Bernkastel to bring Kannon with her when she committed the crime unless he was an accomplice. I concede that Bernkastel is not the culprit.

I'm not done yet though, Theory 2 will hopefully be up sometime today! :nod:
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Mathias_Trueman »

First, some general jabs that will remain constant unless specified otherwise. (Later I will refer to them as “Jab1,” etc.)
Spoiler : The 7 Jabs :
1. The murder was planned by the culprit in some manner, therefore it was not a set of coincidences.

2. Kyrie was not always awake during the time period after she left to go study and the time she was discovered by Erika, Edgeworth, and Rudolf. Kyrie would not admit to being asleep in fear of being punished by her mother. Withholding such information does not make one an accomplice unless she knew she had been put to sleep intentionally by the culprit to commit the crime (she had no such knowledge).

3. Kyrie’s testimony states that no one, not even Franziska, went in or out of the study. This confirms without a doubt that either Kyrie is the culprit, or Jab 2. The latter portion of this jab will be the main focus, since Kyrie being the culprit is uninteresting and unlikely given the detail and thought put into the game board.

4. By Jab 3, Franziska was not necessarily killed in the Study, and could have been moved there post-mortem.

5. Kyrie was offered tea.

6. “Tea was served to everyone but Franziska and Edgeworth.” The verb choice is such that one can safely say that Shannon and Kannon are not included in “everyone,” due to being servants (therefore the servers, never the served) and did not drink the tea for any reason on that day.

7. Sleeping Drugs (or some equivalent) were used during the course of the day by the culprit to ensure success.
Second, some notes;
Spoiler : Notes :
“Tea Time” refers to the period of time beginning when Shanon and Kanon served tea on the day of the murder in the afternoon until Bernkastel and Kanon left for ‘Business.’

“Edgey Time” refers to the period of time beginning when Edgeworth left the parlor before falling asleep (or being drugged etc.) up until Tea Time began.

Sometimes I might say “Dinner,” when referring to “Lunch,” on accident. This is not intentional, but is because the majority of meals that are eaten near the time of a crime that I am familiar with are in the evening (therefore dinner).
The following theory is based on all seven Jabs, and becomes suspect should one of the Jabs be disproven.
Spoiler : Theory 2A :
The following theory is void if Kanon could be forced to consume that which he drugged, would be forced to consume that which he drugged, and was forced to consume that which he drugged. It should be noted that selective drugging is possible until disproven in some fashion.
Image
The culprit is Kanon.

Kanon had an opportunity to incapacitate Edgeworth in some way and leave him in his study during Edgey Time or during Tea Time.

Kanon could have incapacitated Franziska similarly to how he dealt with Edgeworth. However, it should be noted that this time frame is extended to include the time between Franziska leaving and the beginning of Edgey Time.

Kanon had the opportunity to put drugs in the tea, or even in dinner, by tampering with the components (such as teabags or the fish dish that Erika loved so much) beforehand.
Also, it was possible to selectively drug people depending on the method of applying the drug. For example, if the drug was a powder of some kind the different tea cups could have been laced with the powder and (assuming non-noticeable) she could have drugged a person by choosing the cup for them. Such a method makes dinner a possible source as well given the lack of detail surrounding ‘who did what and when’ when dinner was served; the scene is vague enough that dinner could be served in such a manner that allowed drugging or selective drugging.

Either during Tea Time after 6pm or after Tea Time, Kanon killed Franziska outside of the study. Given the same time constraints (but after the murder) he brought her body into the study while Kyrie was asleep.

Erika’s discovery of the crime scene before Kyrie’s study time ended was not intended by Kanon, and puts him at a disadvantage.

Kanon’s plan for the crime was to let the body be discovered after Kyrie finished studying, giving the illusion the body was moved in after Kyrie finished studying. Such a strategy would also get around the possibility of someone questioning Kyrie’s attentiveness and catch on to her nap. By having a perfect alibi for the time the body was supposedly moved, he would have faked his innocence.

By being Bernkastel’s “business” partner, Kanon had motive to murder Franziska. “Buisness” could either refer to an affair between the two
(explaining why Kyrie and Rudolf are so unloved :cry: ) or could involve some illegal activity that would be worth killing over.
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : @Mathias_Trueman :
Image

Oh my. It would seem there has been a slight misunderstanding... well, we'll have to rectify it. Misunderstandings do not a fun mystery make!

Kyrie's testimony is intended to mean that "no one’s gone in or out of the study the whole time" starting after Franziska entered. Police interviews (to which you were not privy) later confirmed that this was Kyrie's intended meaning.

In other words, Kyrie's testimony does not preclude Franziska entering the private study! But don't be fooled into thinking this is the only point of trouble. Oh, no, no, no!~

Recall that Kanon and Shannon prepared and served lunch together. If one were to have drugged the food at any point, the other would definitely have noticed! And if one saw the other try to drug their employers' meal, well... That could hardly be deemed irrelevant, could it?

Alright, but there's still tea time, right? Wrong! Remember, Before the tea was served in the parlor, Shannon was with it, and Shannon held each cup of tea and associated saucer herself and handed them to each person who drank tea that day herself. When could Kanon have drugged the tea?

Alright, so that leaves us with the teabags and fish stock. No selective drugging, but drugging nonetheless. Or is it possible?

Erika knows herself too well to be drugged without her knowledge. Being unexpectedly drowsy would not escape her notice, and she would not let such action against her slide.

So if there is to be any secret drugging, you'll have to avoid Erika, won't you?

Image

Hee hee hee... If you want to find the truth, Detective, you'll need to come up with something better. But make no mistake: this debate is both greatly invigorating and fun! Keep those blue truths coming!
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Mathias_Trueman »

Spoiler : Jab 3 Revised :
3. Kyrie’s testimony states that she saw Franziska enter the Study, but no one else. This confirms without a doubt that either Kyrie is the culprit, or Jab 2. The latter portion of this jab will be the main focus, since Kyrie being the culprit is uninteresting and unlikely given the detail and thought put into the game board.
The following theory is based on all seven Jabs, and becomes suspect should one of the Jabs be disproven.
Spoiler : Theory 2B :
The following theory is void if Shanon could be forced to consume that which she drugged, would be forced to consume that which she drugged, and was forced to consume that which she drugged. It should be noted that selective drugging is possible until disproven in some fashion.

The culprit is Shanon.

Shanon had an opportunity to incapacitate Edgeworth in some way and leave him in his study either before Tea Time or afterwards.

Shanon could have incapacitated Franziska similarly to how he dealt with Edgeworth. However, it should be noted that this time frame is extended to include the time between Franziska leaving and Edgeworth leaving.

Shanon had the opportunity to put drugs in the tea. It was possible to selectively drug people depending on the method of applying the drug if need be.

Shanon had no need to drug Erika because drowsiness is a natural side effect of her medication, or she had to take her medicine after Tea Time and in order to properly digest it one must rest.

Either during Tea Time after 6pm or after Tea Time, Shanon killed Franziska while Kyrie was asleep. This could have been done outside the study or within so long as Kyrie was asleep (unable to determine if someone had entered or exited the study).

Shanon could have a motive by being a descendant of Erika VonKarma. (Shanon is a child of Erika VonKarma.)

Shanon was born mute due to the effects of Erika VonKarma’s illness concerning childbirth. “Years,” as Battler puts it, is vague enough that the symptoms could go back far enough to include the time of Shanon’s birth, even if she was born before Kyrie and Franziska. Manfred is not necessarily the father of Shanon. Erika is not necessarily the mother of Franziska and Bernkastel.

The tradition of the house that servants are to not speak (pg15) is used to conceal Shanon being mute.

Shanon is kept on as a maid due to her lineage. Shanon’s clumsiness and anxiety attacks are not befitting of a servant of the VonKarma household, a reason such as (secret?) lineage would suffice to keep her on the staff for so long.

Shanon being similar to her Umineko counterpart does not contradict the red truth concerning the naming scheme; just because it isn’t a hint doesn’t mean that it isn’t the truth, and such a hint isn’t necessary to come to this conclusion.
Spoiler : Issues with my own theory :
I can't figure out what Shanon gains from setting up the crime scene like this. Being the one to work behind the scenes she wouldn't have an alibi like Kanon or Bernkastel... Its possible she was banking on the police suspecting an intruder being in the room and intended for Erika to discovery the body early, but that wouldn't make sense because she would have known about the security system.

Its also possible that the crime not being a perfectly planned one is a sign of Shanon's anxiety coming into play, but that's unlikely.

Motive can be taken apart in multiple ways, but it seems that motive is the last thing to be checked, so it will do for now.
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : @Mathias_Trueman :
Image

Ooh, it's so exciting to see people closing in on the truth! Yes, I do mean to say that you're on the right track. In fact, I'll even say what it is that you're getting right!

Shannon is the culprit.

Shannon is Erika's daughter.

Shannon is mute.

That's three for three in your favor already! But can you keep it up?

You'll have to be more specific about your proposal on how Shannon might've "incapacitated" Edgeworth and Franziska, but think carefully about this: would doing so have been necessary? If so, why would it be so and how could it be accomplished? As it is now, confirming or denying in red would be premature.

The same holds true for most of the your theory that goes beyond the "who." Shanon could have a motive by being a descendant of Erika von Karma? If that's how simple it was, half the people on this board would have a motive, including Franziska! Remember, your theory on the WHO, HOW, and WHY needs to be "perfectly" thorough. What can make it such?

Also, since when was Shannon clumsy?


Hee hee... Just don't stop now, Detective, not when you're so close!
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Mathias_Trueman »

I live! :D
Spoiler : Misunderstanding Fix :
Calvinball wrote:Also, since when was Shannon clumsy?
This is the result of me misunderstanding the description of Shanon's anxiety attacks (pg15), and thinking Edgeworth mentioned something about clumsiness on top of anxiety attacks. Upon closer inspection that passage does not mention any such thing. "Misunderstandings do not a good mystery make!" as someone once said. :D
Spoiler : I Guess You Can Call This… “Theory 2B : Continued!” :
Operation-bad-pun is a success!

Shannon is the Culprit.

First, Shannon specifications;

Shannon is not a suitable donor for Erika (as far as Erika and Shannon know atleast).

Shannon knows Erika is her mother. Erika knows Shannon is her daughter. While few may know of this relationship, it is generally a secret (for the sake of secrecy, none of the named characters other than Erika and Shannon know of this truth).


At this point the theory branches based on motive. It’s currently a 50/50 between Shannon liking Erika and disliking her, and the crime unfolds slightly differently depending on which way it is. This theory will focus on the possibility that Shannon disliked Erika (regardless of how Erika felt, ).

Motive 1 - If Shannon dislikes Erika, the crime was committed with the intent of indirectly killing Erika and her motive was set in stone regardless of the circumstances surrounding an encounter with Franziska. This means that the crime could have been planned before the day of the murder, but could have still been created on the spur of the moment (anxiety attack etc).

Franziska is the biological daughter of Erika. Franziska is a suitable donor for Erika.

Franziska has donated bone marrow before during her childhood before leaving the house. She donated bone marrow from her left shoulder (alongside admiration for Manfred this led to the similar poses). A donation can extend the lifespan by a considerable amount of time and explains how the symptoms have only recently shown themselves even though Erika suffered from the disease since Shannon’s birth.

Erika only had to ask for donations from Kyrie/relatives because when Franziska left home she was no longer easily accessible. This is why the ‘reunion’ was organized. As suggested by Bernkastel, Edgeworth was indeed invited for face value.

The process of the bone marrow donation is possible inside the VonKarma Manor, and was possible during the time between Franziska’s arrival and Franziska’s death without the presence of an Intruder (ie a doctor who is not Kannon/Shannon/Rudolf/etc). The following explanation for the events that transpired is heavily based on this assumption;

Based on the motive, I propose the following;

Franziska’s true intent for going up to the Study specifically was to visit with Kyrie, not to review old case files.

Erika had arranged for Franziska to meet with her to conduct the transplant after tea time. This arrangement was made either before Franziska arrived at the manor or it was sent as a message to Franziska via Shannon when tea was being delivered to Kyrie (convenient proximity). Since it was Erika who controlled when tea time ended this was possible. (The time between Tea Time ending and Erika returning was a combination of Erika waiting for Franziska, and resting due to the effects of her disease. Erika was searching for Franziska because she failed to meet her within the specified time frame.)

Kyrie fell asleep due to physical tiredness/stress/natural means at some point after Franziska entered. (Despite her Aunt wanting to visit with her, fear of Bernkastel’s wrath kept Kyrie from diverting from her studies to spend time with Franziska.) During this point in time, Franziska left the study and noticed Kyrie was asleep.

Before Tea Time and after leaving the Study, Franziska encountered Shannon. At some point she mentioned Kyrie having slept (most likely in casual conversation). Shannon lured Franziska to a particular room in the house that was convenient and murdered her.

Also before Tea Time, when Edgeworth left the Parlor, Shannon had to prevent him from accidentally discovering the crime scene with his random wandering and knocked him out (clorophorm?). This was also convenient for Shannon’s plan to disguise the crime (discussed at the end).

After dealing with Edgeworth and Franziska, Shannon went and served Tea to everyone with Kannon. As stated in my previous posts, ‘everyone’ includes Kyrie. Shannon made sure to drug Kyrie’s tea so that she would fall asleep not terribly long after drinking it and would last a decent amount of time. She then returned to the Parlor with Kannon for the rest of Tea Time.

When Tea Time ended, Shannon quickly went and moved the body of Franziska into the Study while Kyrie was still asleep due to the drugs. After this she returned to working in the kitchen and washed the residue of the drugs from the teacup(s) and began on dinner.

Shannon’s plan was to make it seem as if someone killed Fransizka, then moved her body into the Study after Kyrie finished studying. All she would have to do is establish a solid alibi for the time between Kyrie’s study finishing and the discovery of the body. (Edgeworth makes a great suspect once you disregard his Detective Authority, which isn’t acknowledged on the mortal plane.) Unfortunately, the body was discovered early because Erika was much more impatient than usual on this occasion.
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Re: Gameboard/General Mystery

Post by Calvinball »

Spoiler : @Mathias_Trueman :
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Hm, hm, hm... how to approach this one... aha!

Franziska has never donated bone marrow before, and there is no way to do so at the von Karma manor without the assistance of a doctor or other qualified medical professional... as well as a lot of medical equipment that Battler would've probably noticed and remarked on had it been there.

While Erika has suffered from her condition for years, the more obvious and personally debilitating symptoms have only sprung up or worsened relatively recently.

Franziska feared for her niece too much to want to disturb Kyrie's study period with a visit.
I wouldn't say it's guaranteed that she really did want to review Manfred von Karma's old cases, but she wasn't planning on visiting with Kyrie.

Kyrie wouldn't fall asleep from simple weariness. Her fear of Bernkastel can overpower the needs of her body.

Franziska went to and entered the private study directly after leaving the front parlor after 4:30 PM. After entering the private study she never exited.

Had there been chloroform in the von Karma manor, Battler and his police would've discovered it.
It's not exactly easy to hide, after all.

There... that ought to be enough. Even so, there's still plenty left of the theory to salvage and re-purpose into something new, isn't there? There's a reason I haven't refuted everything about your blue truth.
The score is still Q to 12. Shirley Homes avatar by my Invisible Friend. They're an awesome artist!
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A huge thanks to my Invisible Friend for this AMAZING Shirley Homes art!

Shirley Homes
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Connie Harper
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A big thanks to gotMLK7 for this Shirley Homes and Connie Harper art. He is an awesome artist!
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