[T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by ZekromFan57 »

trialdude wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:00 pm My two cents on the twists:
Spoiler : :
I totally understand why some might get blindsided by the reveals, but for what it’s worth, I predicted both twists.

I'm glad you were able to! In hindsight, the reveals did come in relatively quick succession, so maybe that's why people were overwhelmed.

I thought the foreshadowing was excellent, and it made solving the motive cross-exam really satisfying. :D

I know what you mean, I always get a rush of excitement whenever I guess a plot twist in a fancase in advance! I'm glad the twists stuck the landing for you.
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by Enthalpy »

I finished playing this case. Full thoughts will have to wait until after the QA review I'm signed up for, but I'll say now that
Spoiler : :
I was also overwhelmed by a lot of this case. I think that the place to start is some adjustments to the investigation section to prevent the temptation to "lawnmower." I'll be thinking about some more specific recommendations, because although I have a vague sense of something being amiss here, it's hard for me to put into words. And that means I have something to learn.
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by Enthalpy »

I started typing up my thoughts on the case. But with a case this big, (7925 frames) I'll burn myself out if I try to talk about everything. I can talk about my thoughts on the gameplay section, but it's the story-side that I find more interesting. Can you talk about what you were going for in some more detail?
Spoiler : :
For example, there were tons of twists. Were you trying to have lots and lots of twists? Did you have one idea that just got more and more pieces to make it work? Were you planning on a backstory that was as dark as this one got?
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by ZekromFan57 »

Enthalpy wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:14 am I started typing up my thoughts on the case. But with a case this big, (7925 frames) I'll burn myself out if I try to talk about everything. I can talk about my thoughts on the gameplay section, but it's the story-side that I find more interesting. Can you talk about what you were going for in some more detail?
Spoiler : :
For example, there were tons of twists. Were you trying to have lots and lots of twists? Did you have one idea that just got more and more pieces to make it work? Were you planning on a backstory that was as dark as this one got?
Spoiler : :
My original idea was simply to have a case where you enter the defendant's dream to get clues, and I had the idea for a while before the comp started. When I found out about the comp, I realised the idea would be a good fit. I had most of the main characters thought up of right away (such as Arman, Drake, Jake and Halley), and the basic premise of the case in my head, and as I worked on the case I got more and more ideas and it grew from there. The main twists (e.g Halley being Dawn, Dawn being the culprit and RE-4 being a suicide) I had planned from the get-go, and as one of the themes was Never Trust the Narrator, this is where the idea of Jake being Richman's son came from, which I also made important to the plot, as it's his memories of RE-4 that served as the proof (I hope it was clear that he was repressing his memories because of his traumatic experiences living with Richman). I was trying to have lots of twists because the plot twists are one of my favourite parts of playing Ace Attorney cases (be them canon or fan cases) and if a case is predictable, I usually won't enjoy it as much, which is why I tried to make my case as unpredictable as possible. And as for your final question, yes, I was planning on having a dark backstory (although my ideas seemed to get darker and darker as time went on), but I didn't want to make it too dark, which is why I gave most of the characters a happy ending (with one obvious exception).
So to summarize, I had the basic idea of what I wanted this case to be in my head from the start, and the ideas developed over time. I wanted especially to make sure there were no plotholes in the end result, especially with so much evidence and so many events which took place, so I went over everything with a fine-toothed comb until I had the final product. The case was always planned to be full of plot twists and have a dark backstory.
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by SuperAj3 »

OK, finally played more of this case! Up to Day 2: Investigation Part 2 now.

I admit, I used a walkthrough only because I was conscious of time.

I gotta say overall I've loved this case so far. Such a unique idea, such a large amount of detail put into your first case it just impressed me a lot. I also like the idea of the HICMED and kinda want to make a one-liner reference to it in my fan game XD (If that's OK with you).

Some little inconsistencies to fix:
Spoiler : :
You can use the colour "transparent" for those little --- before and after your testimony titles, that might make it look neater.

In Trial Day 1, that final present where Ciara says she'll give you one chance, but the judge feels generous and offers 2 - This won't work if you've already made a few mistakes prior, and even with the reduced penalty could still be one chance. Maybe modify the dialogue to account for that?

In 14 years ago trial - When pressing statement 3 of the first cross examination, the penalty bar begins flashing but doesn't stop flashing.

It could also be the von Karma sprite AAO offers, but the finger-wag animation has some transparency issues, mostly around the nose and finger (could just be an issue with AAO's assets)
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by ZekromFan57 »

SuperAj3 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:22 pm OK, finally played more of this case! Up to Day 2: Investigation Part 2 now.

I admit, I used a walkthrough only because I was conscious of time.

I gotta say overall I've loved this case so far. Such a unique idea, such a large amount of detail put into your first case it just impressed me a lot. I also like the idea of the HICMED and kinda want to make a one-liner reference to it in my fan game XD (If that's OK with you).
Thank you, and yep, that's OK with me.

Some little inconsistencies to fix:
Spoiler : :
You can use the colour "transparent" for those little --- before and after your testimony titles, that might make it look neater.
Ah, I didn't know that. I'll probably go back and do that when I have time.

In Trial Day 1, that final present where Ciara says she'll give you one chance, but the judge feels generous and offers 2 - This won't work if you've already made a few mistakes prior, and even with the reduced penalty could still be one chance. Maybe modify the dialogue to account for that?
I'll have to think of a way to rephrase this.

In 14 years ago trial - When pressing statement 3 of the first cross examination, the penalty bar begins flashing but doesn't stop flashing.
I didn't know how the flashing bar worked when I first used it, and I had to go back and fix the problems when I figured it out, but I guess I missed some. Thanks for reporting this one!

It could also be the von Karma sprite AAO offers, but the finger-wag animation has some transparency issues, mostly around the nose and finger (could just be an issue with AAO's assets)
I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. I used the sprites AAO provided, so it's probably an issue on their end.
Thanks for playing! My responses are in red.
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by Enthalpy »

And unsurprisingly, as I started writing, my plans changed, so let's start with something simpler.
Spoiler : :
When I played this case, I never had strong feelings about it. I think a large part of that was because it was so easy to skip past the investigation. For an investigation to work, there has to be something to keep the player's attention other than gathering pieces of evidence so we can get to the trial already. The dialogue is a crucial part of that, and the dialogue here is lacking.

I've given examples of how the AA games do their dialogue elsewhere, so here, I want to do a compare-contrast between some of your current dialogue, and how I'd write it to be a bit more interesting.
Jake: So, about DreamTech... what exactly do they do?
Nocturne: You have GOT to be kidding me. How can you not have heard of DreamTech?
Nocturne: You must be out of touch with modern times.
Jake: I guess so...
Nocturne: It was formed by this inventor... can't remember his name, and our current CEO...
Nocturne: Well, I suppose not current anymore.
Jake: You mean Drake Richman?
Nocturne: Well who else would I be talking about? Really, you need to stop wasting my time with silly questions.
Jake: Alright, can you at least tell me what they develop?!
Nocturne: They've made all sorts of advancements in brain technology, like the HICMED.
Jake: Well, everyone knows about that one. The finest lie-detector in the land.
Nocturne: Oh, there's more than that.
Nocturne: They've made a model that can be used to enter people's dreams.
Jake: (Wow, I had no idea things like that were possible!)
Nocturne: Their current project was to make a phone that could be implanted into people's brains...
Jake: I guess with the CEO dead, the plans have been put on hold.
Nocturne: Yep, but they've still got me!
Jake: (Well, lucky them!)
Jake: (Maybe I should ask him about the thing he was shouting about earlier...)
As-written, I can tell pretty easily that this dialogue was written to get out the plot points "DreamTech's CEO is the victim, Drake Richman", "DreamTech created the HICMED lie detector" and "DreamTech has technology to enter dreams." Nocturne has a distinct personality, being conceited and condescending, but once that gets old (which is fast for me, but not as fast for others), there's not much more there, and I can just try to get to the trial already. Another thing I'll point out is that Jake's emotional reactions change from line to line. He goes from frustrated to unimpressed to astounded to sarcastic. I sense that he doesn't like Nocturne, but that's as much as I can tell.

Here's one way to get out the same information but with dialogue that is less skippable. Because Jake should know about HICMED,
Jake: So, about DreamTech... I know they created the HICMED-
Nocturne: Finest lie detector in the market!
Jake: Uh, right. As I was saying, I know they created the HICMED, but what else can you tell me about the company?
Jake: What do dreams have to do with lie detecting?
Nocturne: I'll let you in on a secret.
Nocturne: DreamTech is developing dream tech. Yes, really!
Jake: That's supposed to be a secret?
Nocturne: Hey! The project to let you enter someone else's dreams has only been on the market for a month!
Jake: If it's on the market, I still don't see how that's a secret.
Nocturne: Hmph.
Jake: (Right, they mentioned at the academy that some witnesses need "special" treatment.)
Jake: Well, what was the story behind that? I haven't heard anything about that.
Nocturne: Well, of course you haven't! You're not in the company.
Jake: Like you are.
Nocturne: Exactly. It all goes back to an investor and an inventor. Our current CEO was... Was...
Jake: (The inventor!)
Nocturne: I suppose it's not important.
Jake: (I think it's time to change the topic.)
In this version, Jake has a consistent attitude towards Nocturne, and we see the two interact with each other. Nocturne annoys Jake, Jake shows his annoyance, Nocturne shows his annoyance, and Jake responds by concealing his annoyance and trying to be smoother with the witness. Hopefully, you can tell the difference between the two versions of dialogue.

Another good example is the first scene with Vespers. What clues we get as to how Jake feels about him change line-to-line.
Let me know if you need me to give another example, or have other questions/comments.
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by ZekromFan57 »

Enthalpy wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:56 am And unsurprisingly, as I started writing, my plans changed, so let's start with something simpler.
Spoiler : :
When I played this case, I never had strong feelings about it. I think a large part of that was because it was so easy to skip past the investigation. For an investigation to work, there has to be something to keep the player's attention other than gathering pieces of evidence so we can get to the trial already. The dialogue is a crucial part of that, and the dialogue here is lacking.

I've given examples of how the AA games do their dialogue elsewhere, so here, I want to do a compare-contrast between some of your current dialogue, and how I'd write it to be a bit more interesting.
Jake: So, about DreamTech... what exactly do they do?
Nocturne: You have GOT to be kidding me. How can you not have heard of DreamTech?
Nocturne: You must be out of touch with modern times.
Jake: I guess so...
Nocturne: It was formed by this inventor... can't remember his name, and our current CEO...
Nocturne: Well, I suppose not current anymore.
Jake: You mean Drake Richman?
Nocturne: Well who else would I be talking about? Really, you need to stop wasting my time with silly questions.
Jake: Alright, can you at least tell me what they develop?!
Nocturne: They've made all sorts of advancements in brain technology, like the HICMED.
Jake: Well, everyone knows about that one. The finest lie-detector in the land.
Nocturne: Oh, there's more than that.
Nocturne: They've made a model that can be used to enter people's dreams.
Jake: (Wow, I had no idea things like that were possible!)
Nocturne: Their current project was to make a phone that could be implanted into people's brains...
Jake: I guess with the CEO dead, the plans have been put on hold.
Nocturne: Yep, but they've still got me!
Jake: (Well, lucky them!)
Jake: (Maybe I should ask him about the thing he was shouting about earlier...)
As-written, I can tell pretty easily that this dialogue was written to get out the plot points "DreamTech's CEO is the victim, Drake Richman", "DreamTech created the HICMED lie detector" and "DreamTech has technology to enter dreams." Nocturne has a distinct personality, being conceited and condescending, but once that gets old (which is fast for me, but not as fast for others), there's not much more there, and I can just try to get to the trial already. Another thing I'll point out is that Jake's emotional reactions change from line to line. He goes from frustrated to unimpressed to astounded to sarcastic. I sense that he doesn't like Nocturne, but that's as much as I can tell.

Here's one way to get out the same information but with dialogue that is less skippable. Because Jake should know about HICMED,
Jake: So, about DreamTech... I know they created the HICMED-
Nocturne: Finest lie detector in the market!
Jake: Uh, right. As I was saying, I know they created the HICMED, but what else can you tell me about the company?
Jake: What do dreams have to do with lie detecting?
Nocturne: I'll let you in on a secret.
Nocturne: DreamTech is developing dream tech. Yes, really!
Jake: That's supposed to be a secret?
Nocturne: Hey! The project to let you enter someone else's dreams has only been on the market for a month!
Jake: If it's on the market, I still don't see how that's a secret.
Nocturne: Hmph.
Jake: (Right, they mentioned at the academy that some witnesses need "special" treatment.)
Jake: Well, what was the story behind that? I haven't heard anything about that.
Nocturne: Well, of course you haven't! You're not in the company.
Jake: Like you are.
Nocturne: Exactly. It all goes back to an investor and an inventor. Our current CEO was... Was...
Jake: (The inventor!)
Nocturne: I suppose it's not important.
Jake: (I think it's time to change the topic.)
In this version, Jake has a consistent attitude towards Nocturne, and we see the two interact with each other. Nocturne annoys Jake, Jake shows his annoyance, Nocturne shows his annoyance, and Jake responds by concealing his annoyance and trying to be smoother with the witness. Hopefully, you can tell the difference between the two versions of dialogue.

Another good example is the first scene with Vespers. What clues we get as to how Jake feels about him change line-to-line.
Let me know if you need me to give another example, or have other questions/comments.
Spoiler : :
Reading through that, I can definitely tell which one seems more similar to an actual Ace Attorney game, and your point about Jake's attitude changing a lot is well-founded. Some more examples and tips would be nice so I can learn more about how to improve my character writing. One question, when you said the dialogue was lacking, did you mean the dialogue overall, or specifically the investigation segments's dialogue? That way, if I ever go back and improve the case, I'll know where to put my focus.
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by Enthalpy »

Thanks for waiting - it's been a hectic few days for me. Anyways.
Spoiler : :
I was referring specifically to the investigation segment. For the trial segment, I was focused more on the case logic and wasn't paying as much attention to the characterization. I can talk about that too if it would be helpful, but I'll need to replay the trial to remember details.

In terms of tips, the biggest one I have for you right now is: when reviewing your dialogue, ask if it feels like you're going through a checklist. For example. Halley doesn't reveal much about herself in the investigation (by design), and the only time she shows much personality is when talking about witnessing her father's death. This is fine. However, Jake's responding to "I've lived here in this house all my life. I hardly ever leave. I don't think I know anything that would be of interest to you." feels unusual. For example, here are five directions Jake could have steered the conversation.
  1. Does your father leave the house very often?
  2. When was the last time you left?
  3. Do you receive many guests at the house?
  4. Does your father not want you leaving the house?
  5. Don't you ever get lonely?
The lack of a follow-up is unnatural if you're expecting a dialogue between human beings, but makes perfect sense if you view the scene as ticking information off a checklist. When there are enough scenes like that, the effect builds.

If you see it feels like a checklist, stop to ask what the characters want and what they think about the characters they're talking to. That should give you some inspiration for other ways to make the dialogue feel more natural.

Also, don't feel like you have to get the dialogue right on try one. Revising is part of the process!
[D]isordered speech is not so much injury to the lips that give it forth, as to the disproportion and incoherence of things in themselves, so negligently expressed. ~ Ben Jonson
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by ZekromFan57 »

Enthalpy wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:32 pm Thanks for waiting - it's been a hectic few days for me. Anyways.
Spoiler : :
I was referring specifically to the investigation segment. For the trial segment, I was focused more on the case logic and wasn't paying as much attention to the characterization. I can talk about that too if it would be helpful, but I'll need to replay the trial to remember details.

In terms of tips, the biggest one I have for you right now is: when reviewing your dialogue, ask if it feels like you're going through a checklist. For example. Halley doesn't reveal much about herself in the investigation (by design), and the only time she shows much personality is when talking about witnessing her father's death. This is fine. However, Jake's responding to "I've lived here in this house all my life. I hardly ever leave. I don't think I know anything that would be of interest to you." feels unusual. For example, here are five directions Jake could have steered the conversation.
  1. Does your father leave the house very often?
  2. When was the last time you left?
  3. Do you receive many guests at the house?
  4. Does your father not want you leaving the house?
  5. Don't you ever get lonely?
The lack of a follow-up is unnatural if you're expecting a dialogue between human beings, but makes perfect sense if you view the scene as ticking information off a checklist. When there are enough scenes like that, the effect builds.

If you see it feels like a checklist, stop to ask what the characters want and what they think about the characters they're talking to. That should give you some inspiration for other ways to make the dialogue feel more natural.

Also, don't feel like you have to get the dialogue right on try one. Revising is part of the process!
Spoiler : :
Thanks for all the advice! I'm definitely going to incorporate it into my future cases, so hopefully I can improve. Again, thanks for your time in reviewing this case.
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by ikuzonos »

I started playing this case last night because I was really interested in the premise, and it sucked me in so quickly that I played the entire thing in one go, keeping me up until one in the morning. I'm really invested in the worldbuilding you did; there's so much to potentially explore with this concept!
Spoiler : :
I like the characters created for this case, especially Halley/Dawn and Ciara. I spent a lot of the case being unreasonably suspicious of Chief Tanner (it's the Gant sprites. Always puts me on edge.) so it was honestly a nice surprise that he was just a genuinely good dude. All that said, having three characters with very similar names (Jake, Jack, Jay) was a bit confusing at times, though it didn't diminish my enjoyment of the case.

I loved the dream exploration mechanic; I swear you could make an entire game just out of that. It was very vivid and thought provoking; the music fit it well and I enjoyed the puzzles. It feels like this was a lot to program, so kudos to you for that.

The case had twist after twist, but I managed to pick up on a couple of them, such as Talman actually being Armie & Jay's involvement with RE-4 and this current case. Most of the others, the foreshadowing hit me immediately after the fact (like how there were no photos of Dawn/Halley. Wow, that was a painful one.) Jake being Dawn's twin hit me hard; I'll have to replay at some point to see how they react to meeting each other.

Overall, I really liked this case! The music was great (I recognized that Super Paper Mario track the second it started playing, aha.)
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by ZekromFan57 »

ikuzonos wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:08 pm I started playing this case last night because I was really interested in the premise, and it sucked me in so quickly that I played the entire thing in one go, keeping me up until one in the morning. I'm really invested in the worldbuilding you did; there's so much to potentially explore with this concept!
Spoiler : :
I like the characters created for this case, especially Halley/Dawn and Ciara.
I’m glad you did! My character writing isn’t the best so I had to make a lot of revisions along the way, but those two were the characters I spent the most time developing so I’m glad it showed.
I spent a lot of the case being unreasonably suspicious of Chief Tanner (it's the Gant sprites. Always puts me on edge.) so it was honestly a nice surprise that he was just a genuinely good dude.
He do be swimmin tho.

All that said, having three characters with very similar names (Jake, Jack, Jay) was a bit confusing at times, though it didn't diminish my enjoyment of the case.
I’ll go ahead and shed some light on this. Jack and Jay fit into my pun-naming pattern to do with times of the day, (Jack Midnight - Midnight Snack, also because he’s a chef and Jay rhyming with day), and Jake Flint was the first name I came up with for my protagonist; and it wasn’t till later where I realised things could get confusing. I’m glad that it didn’t ruin things for you though.

I loved the dream exploration mechanic; I swear you could make an entire game just out of that.
Who knows? Maybe I’ll make a sequel someday...

It was very vivid and thought provoking; the music fit it well and I enjoyed the puzzles. It feels like this was a lot to program, so kudos to you for that.
Yep, making the dream puzzles mainly involved hiding and revealing objects depending on player choices. It took a lot of trial-and-error so I’m glad you enjoyed playing them!

The case had twist after twist, but I managed to pick up on a couple of them, such as Talman actually being Armie & Jay's involvement with RE-4 and this current case. Most of the others, the foreshadowing hit me immediately after the fact (like how there were no photos of Dawn/Halley. Wow, that was a painful one.) Jake being Dawn's twin hit me hard; I'll have to replay at some point to see how they react to meeting each other.
I’m impressed you worked out Talman was Armie; that was definitely one of the twists with the least foreshadowing.

Overall, I really liked this case! The music was great (I recognized that Super Paper Mario track the second it started playing, aha.)
Ah, I see you’re a man if culture as well.
Thanks for playing! My responses are in red.
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by judywriter »

How many chapters are there in RE 4?
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by ZekromFan57 »

judywriter wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:09 pm How many chapters are there in RE 4?
Spoiler : :
Just one, a trial section.
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Re: [T] [CE] Dream of a Better Turnabout ●

Post by Doomer_Darren »

This is sick!
Cool :D :phoenix:
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