[T] Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney – Dark Ace Saga ★☆○○

kal0123456789 · Post by **kal0123456789** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:54 am

drvonkitty wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:53 am
kal0123456789 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 6:14 pm -snip-
thanks for playing!!
Spoiler : big spoiler :
trucy's mood matrix at the finale does have a bit of a guessing element to it (hence why no penalty for incorrect answers) but i do think there is some basis for presenting kristoph's profile (or autopsy) for happiness. the initial monologue during the intro throws out some thoughts on grief/mourning and its relation to wickedness. kristoph was certainly a wicked man, and he made trucy do a lot of grieving: not for him, but because of him. you may not agree with that conclusion, but i think it makes sense for trucy to feel some degree of happiness (maybe "relief" is a better word for it) at kristoph's demise. after all, as athena says during the therapy session, she's just human.

Response to drvonkitty and Zekrom:

Spoiler : :

Response to Zekrom:
Sorry, I don't have the save/anything telling about the frame, I only rememberred it in the middle of Trial Day 3.

drvonkitty · Post by **drvonkitty** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 1:50 pm

kal0123456789 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:54 am -snip-

Spoiler : :

PersonWhoExists50306 · Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:48 pm

Minor bug:

Spoiler : :

ZekromFan57 · Post by **ZekromFan57** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:55 pm

PersonWhoExists50306 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:48 pm Minor bug:

Spoiler : :
When Apollo says

"I'd also add that Ms. Cykes
pointed out the window is
hidden behind a painting."

the background is the co-counsel one, not the prosecution one."

Fixed! Thanks.

AshuraMage · Post by **AshuraMage** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 3:24 am

Spoiler : Review Attempt :

Alright, this is my first time doing something like this, but I think that this case deserves it. I played Ace of Turnabouts a really long time ago, so I appreciate the brief recap since this is a sequel, so, thanks for that

.
AWoT is a really unique case in its concept since it has some unique ideas that go even more far than its predecessor and still make for an interesting experience that makes me curious to see where this AU goes. It has some nice custom art, the mystery, although simple, is really complex to resolve and connect to a lot of stuff, which makes me happy, since I am a sucker for stuff that seems really simple at first glance but are more complicated than a rubik's cube. The new characters were interesting to interact with and I liked most of them a lot(probably the only one I didn't enjoy was the detective in charge of the Dark Ace Killer because she wasn't anything special, barely had any scenes and has a bad and annoying theme song that doesn't fit her at all). The story was really good and was one of the strongest I ever saw on any AA fancases/fangames.

Alright, now that I talked about the good stuff, let's talk about the stuff I didn't like.
Trial, Day 3.
Seriously, I quitted halfway through, this trial just never ends(specially compared to Trial, Day 2, that is kinda quick), has some impossible logic leaps and most of the time I was agreeing more with the villain than with Athena. For example, the entire first half of the trial is us talking about a previous incident and the only reason why I thought there was a connection with the present incident was because the protagonist kept saying there was, because if it was for myself, I seriously wouldn't have seen any connection between the two cases and it's a miracle that the judge just decided to let Athena go even though, for most of the trial, she didn't even said anything about the actual case. Comparing this to 1-5, where we also solve a previous case mid-trial, the case does a great job at showing us there is a connection between SL-9 and the current case, something that Phoenix connects very well even before solving SL-9. This doesn't happen here, most of the time Athena is just childishly claiming that there is a connection between the two cases even though she doesn't show this connection. Another point I didn't like was after the Trucy reveal, because it doesn't make any sense for her to be the forger, the game never gives us any indication that she has any crafting skills on making pen that writes with invisible ink that can reappear later or whatever, it just comes out of nowhere. And worst, after this revelation, the trial just comes into a circus. I quit after doing Trucy's mood matrix and I am not really hyped to go back and finish it. Maybe one day.

Anyway, it was a case that I was really enjoying before the second half of the second trial, so I would recommend people giving it a go, maybe they will enjoy it more than I did it.
7.5/10

drvonkitty · Post by **drvonkitty** » Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:53 am

AshuraMage wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 3:24 am
Spoiler : Review Attempt :
Alright, this is my first time doing something like this, but I think that this case deserves it. I played Ace of Turnabouts a really long time ago, so I appreciate the brief recap since this is a sequel, so, thanks for that .
AWoT is a really unique case in its concept since it has some unique ideas that go even more far than its predecessor and still make for an interesting experience that makes me curious to see where this AU goes. It has some nice custom art, the mystery, although simple, is really complex to resolve and connect to a lot of stuff, which makes me happy, since I am a sucker for stuff that seems really simple at first glance but are more complicated than a rubik's cube. The new characters were interesting to interact with and I liked most of them a lot(probably the only one I didn't enjoy was the detective in charge of the Dark Ace Killer because she wasn't anything special, barely had any scenes and has a bad and annoying theme song that doesn't fit her at all). The story was really good and was one of the strongest I ever saw on any AA fancases/fangames.

Alright, now that I talked about the good stuff, let's talk about the stuff I didn't like.
Trial, Day 3.
Seriously, I quitted halfway through, this trial just never ends(specially compared to Trial, Day 2, that is kinda quick), has some impossible logic leaps and most of the time I was agreeing more with the villain than with Athena. For example, the entire first half of the trial is us talking about a previous incident and the only reason why I thought there was a connection with the present incident was because the protagonist kept saying there was, because if it was for myself, I seriously wouldn't have seen any connection between the two cases and it's a miracle that the judge just decided to let Athena go even though, for most of the trial, she didn't even said anything about the actual case. Comparing this to 1-5, where we also solve a previous case mid-trial, the case does a great job at showing us there is a connection between SL-9 and the current case, something that Phoenix connects very well even before solving SL-9. This doesn't happen here, most of the time Athena is just childishly claiming that there is a connection between the two cases even though she doesn't show this connection. Another point I didn't like was after the Trucy reveal, because it doesn't make any sense for her to be the forger, the game never gives us any indication that she has any crafting skills on making pen that writes with invisible ink that can reappear later or whatever, it just comes out of nowhere. And worst, after this revelation, the trial just comes into a circus. I quit after doing Trucy's mood matrix and I am not really hyped to go back and finish it. Maybe one day.

Anyway, it was a case that I was really enjoying before the second half of the second trial, so I would recommend people giving it a go, maybe they will enjoy it more than I did it.
7.5/10

sorry to hear you had a bad experience with it! some thoughts below:

Spoiler : whole trial :

weirdly enough this review is actually a little bit validating: throughout playtesting i had an inkling there would be some players who would not like the direction of trial day 3 for essentially the reasons you listed. there's definitely some core flaws with the narrative: first, it was NOT meant to be that long--i ended up being much more long-winded than i intended to be! second, the whole segment does spend most of its time focusing on or around the MW-12 incident. i'm not sure i agree with your characterization of athena's arguments tho: yeah, she's definitely stretching at a number of points since she is so legally inexperienced, but the fact that MW-12 shows a corrupt, criminal organization in the justice system and involved both victims, the defendant, and two of the key witnesses... well, there's a connection there at the very least! i'll be honest, when it comes to pacing complaints, i'm not sure i'd look to 1-5 as an example of a case that was paced well lol. it's been a while, but i recall playing through that one and thinking to myself that the case had totally veered away from the original murder and how much it seemed to drag on. i completely get how you might find that aspect of trial day 3 frustrating ofc--i'm just not sure i agree with the comparison to 1-5.

now, on trucy... oh, believe me, i could go on and on about trucy wright's character, why she did what she did in web, etc. i'll admit however that the trucy twist is something i wed myself to early on, and it ends up carrying a lot of the emotional heft in trial day 3. so, if you aren't a fan, i can understand why you'd end up quitting in the aftermath of that reveal! there's a number of controversial decisions i made around that whole portion of the trial, but personally i believe those decisions are completely within the bounds of how these characters would behave in this situation.

trucy is a really complex character that rarely gets the recognition she deserves. people see this upbeat, childish "assistant" persona that she puts on during AJ without seeing that underneath she is an extremely bright, somewhat morally dubious, character with tremendous agency. a few examples:

when phoenix introduces apollo to trucy, he describes her as a "genius". it's easy to dismiss this early on as hobo!nick being himself, especially since he and trucy are clearly screwing with apollo, but i believe phoenix 100% sees trucy as a genius. remember that phoenix met trucy when she was 8, and one of the first things he learned is that she is already a professional magician who was able to help pull off a trick that fooled the entire courtroom. at age eight! not to mention the fact that she is the reason he goes undefeated in poker for so long. he may be very good at poker, but his poker face needs work.
the fake mr. hat kidnapping in 4-2 is another great example. trucy saw a practical problem (apollo was about to lose) and, without even consulting him, staged a believable fake kidnapping that 1) used her magic, and 2) tricked everyone into believing she was in actual danger. all of that so she can tell apollo about his perceive power!
we also learn that trucy likes picking locks as a hobby. this makes sense for a magician, but given trucy's other behavior and tendency to do things like fiddling with the crime scene, taking things, etc, something tells me she may have picked at least a couple locks she shouldn't have...
the final scene in AJ where phoenix is talking about he's the only one who knows how trucy feels on the inside. ugh, i love it! SOJ tried to touch on this with 6-2, but i just don't think we ever really get to see into the complexity of trucy's character as this extremely bright teenager who suffered so much trauma in her youth and subsequently "grew up too fast". she puts on this facade of an innocent girl for others, sometimes to fool them but also to support them, but it's clear that she has so much going on beneath the surface that we don't know about. i tried my best to establish this through parts 1-3, to get the player suspicious of trucy at the very least.
and then, the bloody ace forgery. this is a fan theory that's been around for ages and i've seen some extensive arguments about it. personally, i love the theory & think it would've been established as canon if we got a direct sequel to AJ, but i also understand others who think we should take phoenix at his word that he forged the card. however, regardless of anything else, trucy is the one who pulls off the "naughty magician's trick" and at the very least would have provided the card to phoenix, even if she didn't go so far as to forge it herself. even so, making a complex invisible ink still strikes me as something within the toolset of a professional, highly talented magician. but you may disagree and that's okay!

point being: trucy is well-established in AJ as a morally dubious character, who is willing to bend the rules if she believes it's necessary to help the people she cares about. in web, we see a much more vulnerable trucy who, in light of all the struggles she's faced, is having a hard time maintaining the mask she uses to protect herself. when the killer contacted her on the website and brought up the bloody ace, then gave a story about how they wanted revenge on someone who hurt the people they cared about... well, i believe it's a completely reasonable development for trucy to get caught up in that scheme, thinking she was doing the right thing. an important distinction is that i don't really hold trucy morally responsible for it, which may also frustrate some folks, though i did try to highlight that she didn't know the person was plotting a straight-up murder. in contrast with all this talk of trucy being a genius, athena points out that trucy is still just a kid who never deserved to have all this weight and responsibility upon her shoulders. that's why athena (and frankly everyone involved) is so quick to forgive trucy for inadvertently helping with the forgery and later hiding it once she realized that was the case.

anyway! that's enough rambling for now--but hopefully that helps explain things a little bit as to the thinking behind trial day 3. even so, i understand why someone might not like it, and i apologize that was the case for you! thanks for playing & for the review--it's great to hear feedback even from those who didn't enjoy the case.

CodingAnt · Post by **CodingAnt** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:14 am

I was gonna write a longer review along with some nitpicks I wrote out while playing, but, uh... My computer crashed and I lost it all! So instead I'll just write out some quick thoughts. (I mean, not ACTUALLY quick, but quicker than it was going to be.)

Spoiler : Review :

Right off the bat, I'm just gonna say that this case is amazing. Drvon and Zekrom have created a truly special kind of AU where, aside from a few slow moments in Trial, Day 3, I'm on the edge of my seat the entire time. I cannot wait to see how the Dark Ace trilogy comes to a close.

The first immediate strong point that comes to mind is the characters. Particularly, Athena, Apollo, and Trucy. It's incredibly fun seeing how their dynamics change from Apollo's shift in demeanour. Trucy can't trust Apollo anymore, which he wants to apologise for but doesn't know how. Apollo and Athena become adversaries, but they still respect one another and sometimes you can start to see their more wholesome canon relationship try and shine through. And, of course, Athena and Trucy's bond is stronger than ever with so many oppressive forces pushing down on them. This comes to a head just before the credits, where, despite Athena showing her to be an unwitting accomplice, Trucy forgives her and they make up in a truly touching scene. These three characters also stand alone very well, each being very angsty in their own unique ways. (I especially appreciate a more extreme portrayal of Athena's anxiety, which you would naturally expect given her more fragile support network in this AU.)

The original characters are nice too. JVC and Oleg are always a treat, even if the latter doesn't get much screentime, and Marian Jir has a competent arc here, even if it overall isn't anything special. (Though I appreciate a calmer version of her, I don't really get why her anger issues disappeared when we were uncovering the truth of MW-12. I feel like bringing up painful memories would make her MORE angry, like it did with JVC.) But the real treat is Richard Kingson. He definitely feels like an Ace Attorney villain, abusing the power that comes with being Chief Justice at every available opportunity, and his legally required AA witness quirk being bringing up random sayings, which is fun. He feels like a more put-together version of Damon Gant, though much less intimidating.

The story in this case is overall pretty good, though not much actually gets solved. We find out that Kingson and van Cleef were behind a bunch of cover-ups surrounding the MW-12 incident, and that Kingson murdered an interpol agent and attempted to murder Marian Jir into silence three years later. Athena's theory is that he also killed Kristoph and van Cleef for the same reasons, but this ends up being disproven once Kingson dies on the stand with the Dark Ace card in his pocket, which is an amazing twist, and one I honestly should've seen coming seeing as Kingson would've had no reason to leave a calling card. The story is left intentionally unsatisfying, with the Dark Ace killer still on the loose, and honestly I respect that a ton.

Spoiler : Although, if you want my own personal theory as to their identity... :

My main complaints with this case come from the gameplay. Specifically, in Trial, Day 3. I got tired of trying to figure things out at several points and just resorted to the walkthrough. Unfortunately with my notes gone I can't give you specific feedback, but I do recall a couple presents feeling unfair or like leaps of logic, including the first(?) time presenting the flash drive. A couple points in this segment also feel like they drag on for a little longer than they should, as, honestly, MW-12 is not that complicated of a case and doesn't need this long to explain it.

I also lost some nitpicks, which... I mean, not a huge loss, they were mostly very minor. The few I do remember are:

Trucy being present in the prison hallway scene in Investigation, Day 1, but you not being able to interact with her at all
Having to choose "No" twice in Larry's Mood Matrix segment if you get something wrong and have to try again, also in Investigation, Day 1
"Club Poker? I Hardly Know Her" being referred to as "Club Poker: I Hardly Know Her" in a couple evidence and check descriptions
And Oleg O'Reilly being referred to as a barista (NOT baritso!) instead of the other way around in his profile description in Trial, Day 3

Overall, drvonkitty and ZekromFan57 are incredibly talented case-makers, capable of a wide range of emotional scenes, compelling mysteries and character intrigue. I have an endless list of good things to say about them and this case.

risefromtheashes · Post by **risefromtheashes** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:27 am

(Post written [mostly] by Ashley)

DISCLAIMER: This post is 7,851 words long. Spoilers inside. Obviously.

Hi, just finished playing this over the last couple of days! (Had to go to bed before the finale of part 4, sadge.) This will be very very very very very long and is definitely full of spoilers, so new players beware.

My other preface is that I mostly enjoyed this case and would probably rate it a solid 8/10. It's well put together, has good characters, fantastic presentation, and flows well with logic (even though I personally got overwhelmed towards the end, but that's because I tend to skim through long cases and not fully process details, which bites me in the ass when I get to trial latter and have to break a hole in the case). The two points I'm leaving out, I'll discuss at length below. And keep in mind that I discuss negatives more at length in my reviews/feedback because I go into detail both about problems and any solutions I can think of -- so don't let the length of text make you think I didn't like this case. Again -- 8/10. That's a fantastic rating.
Keep in mind while you read this that I only ever have SO MANY THOUGHTS about works of fiction I'm really invested in, and let me tell you, I got INVESTED in this one. I'm effing rooting for this case. I don't think this has happened for me with an AAO case since "Malleus Maleficarum: The Witch of San Ignacio" by GuardianDreamer.

Spoiler : REVIEW. Hopefully this doesn't get stomped by the character limit. It's HUGE. :

Hopefully y'all are able to somehow get through all of that. If you ever find it in yourselves to respond to that crapload of feedback, please do -- again, I got INVESTED in this case and would love to talk about it.

drvonkitty · Post by **drvonkitty** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 3:33 pm

CodingAnt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:14 am I was gonna write a longer review along with some nitpicks I wrote out while playing, but, uh... My computer crashed and I lost it all! So instead I'll just write out some quick thoughts. (I mean, not ACTUALLY quick, but quicker than it was going to be.)

Spoiler : Review :
Right off the bat, I'm just gonna say that this case is amazing. Drvon and Zekrom have created a truly special kind of AU where, aside from a few slow moments in Trial, Day 3, I'm on the edge of my seat the entire time. I cannot wait to see how the Dark Ace trilogy comes to a close.

The first immediate strong point that comes to mind is the characters. Particularly, Athena, Apollo, and Trucy. It's incredibly fun seeing how their dynamics change from Apollo's shift in demeanour. Trucy can't trust Apollo anymore, which he wants to apologise for but doesn't know how. Apollo and Athena become adversaries, but they still respect one another and sometimes you can start to see their more wholesome canon relationship try and shine through. And, of course, Athena and Trucy's bond is stronger than ever with so many oppressive forces pushing down on them. This comes to a head just before the credits, where, despite Athena showing her to be an unwitting accomplice, Trucy forgives her and they make up in a truly touching scene. These three characters also stand alone very well, each being very angsty in their own unique ways. (I especially appreciate a more extreme portrayal of Athena's anxiety, which you would naturally expect given her more fragile support network in this AU.)
i loved writing this dynamic, so i'm happy to see it worked well for you!

The original characters are nice too. JVC and Oleg are always a treat, even if the latter doesn't get much screentime, and Marian Jir has a competent arc here, even if it overall isn't anything special. (Though I appreciate a calmer version of her, I don't really get why her anger issues disappeared when we were uncovering the truth of MW-12. I feel like bringing up painful memories would make her MORE angry, like it did with JVC.) But the real treat is Richard Kingson. He definitely feels like an Ace Attorney villain, abusing the power that comes with being Chief Justice at every available opportunity, and his legally required AA witness quirk being bringing up random sayings, which is fun. He feels like a more put-together version of Damon Gant, though much less intimidating.
funnily enough, i think marian actually plays a really important thematic role in the case which gets overshadowed a bit by everything else going on. i'll write a bit more on that when i get to responding to risefromtheashes' dissertation! also, "a more put-together version of damon gant" is a great summary of kingson's character, so thank you for that!

The story in this case is overall pretty good, though not much actually gets solved. We find out that Kingson and van Cleef were behind a bunch of cover-ups surrounding the MW-12 incident, and that Kingson murdered an interpol agent and attempted to murder Marian Jir into silence three years later. Athena's theory is that he also killed Kristoph and van Cleef for the same reasons, but this ends up being disproven once Kingson dies on the stand with the Dark Ace card in his pocket, which is an amazing twist, and one I honestly should've seen coming seeing as Kingson would've had no reason to leave a calling card. The story is left intentionally unsatisfying, with the Dark Ace killer still on the loose, and honestly I respect that a ton.
Spoiler : Although, if you want my own personal theory as to their identity... :
I think it's JVC. One, as he seems to hate corrupt law officials, and two, as he is apparently the one who found (read: planted) the Dark Ace card at the scene of his father's death.
i know some may be justifably frustrated at ending on a cliffhanger again, but i did really enjoy writing kingson as this big bad villain and then suddenly pulling the rug out and revealing him as one of the victims. credit for that idea goes entirely to zekrom!!

My main complaints with this case come from the gameplay. Specifically, in Trial, Day 3. I got tired of trying to figure things out at several points and just resorted to the walkthrough. Unfortunately with my notes gone I can't give you specific feedback, but I do recall a couple presents feeling unfair or like leaps of logic, including the first(?) time presenting the flash drive. A couple points in this segment also feel like they drag on for a little longer than they should, as, honestly, MW-12 is not that complicated of a case and doesn't need this long to explain it.
very fair criticism, i did lots of tweaking to the case logic while writing part 4 and things got a bit muddied along the way, i think. it also does drag on, and if i had the benefit of hindsight while writing, i probably would have split it into two parts and tried to tamp things down.

I also lost some nitpicks, which... I mean, not a huge loss, they were mostly very minor. The few I do remember are:
Trucy being present in the prison hallway scene in Investigation, Day 1, but you not being able to interact with her at all

Having to choose "No" twice in Larry's Mood Matrix segment if you get something wrong and have to try again, also in Investigation, Day 1

"Club Poker? I Hardly Know Her" being referred to as "Club Poker: I Hardly Know Her" in a couple evidence and check descriptions

And Oleg O'Reilly being referred to as a barista (NOT baritso!) instead of the other way around in his profile description in Trial, Day 3
these should be easily fixed! although, i think the last one may be a zekrom joke! if you present his profile to oleg in the starstrum, he and athena have a prolonged argument about the etymology of the term and whether "baristo" is a hypercorrect term. idk much about any of that but he can probably explain better than i!

Overall, drvonkitty and ZekromFan57 are incredibly talented case-makers, capable of a wide range of emotional scenes, compelling mysteries and character intrigue. I have an endless list of good things to say about them and this case.
thank you!!!

thanks for playing!! a few responses in red above.

risefromtheashes wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:27 am (Post written [mostly] by Ashley)

DISCLAIMER: This post is 7,851 words long. Spoilers inside. Obviously.
Spoiler : REVIEW. Hopefully this doesn't get stomped by the character limit. It's HUGE. :
Hi, just finished playing this over the last couple of days! (Had to go to bed before the finale of part 4, sadge.) This will be very very very very very long and is definitely full of spoilers, so new players beware.

My other preface is that I mostly enjoyed this case and would probably rate it a solid 8/10. It's well put together, has good characters, fantastic presentation, and flows well with logic (even though I personally got overwhelmed towards the end, but that's because I tend to skim through long cases and not fully process details, which bites me in the ass when I get to trial latter and have to break a hole in the case). The two points I'm leaving out, I'll discuss at length below. And keep in mind that I discuss negatives more at length in my reviews/feedback because I go into detail both about problems and any solutions I can think of -- so don't let the length of text make you think I didn't like this case. Again -- 8/10. That's a fantastic rating.
Keep in mind while you read this that I only ever have SO MANY THOUGHTS about works of fiction I'm really invested in, and let me tell you, I got INVESTED in this one. I'm effing rooting for this case. I don't think this has happened for me with an AAO case since "Malleus Maleficarum: The Witch of San Ignacio" by GuardianDreamer.
really glad to see you got so invested, and no worries about negative criticism! art is nothing without criticism imo, and while praise is always awesome, reading negative responses can be super enlightening both for improving in the future, but also understanding how different people will interpret the same piece of work in various ways.

Okay phew, this was a longer case than I expected. I have a few issues with the length, but ironically, they would be solved by making the first two (maybe three) parts a little bit longer, not the fourth one shorter. There was definitely a ton to process in this case, and I think fiction in general often goes from A to B quickly rather than allowing that time for things to simmer a little bit before coming to a boil. I wouldn't describe this case as rushed, though -- just that there were some characters and things that needed more screentime.

I hope I can remember most of my thoughts, since I didn't write anything down while playing. Not that you won't have an absolute feast of words to go through even if I only write 40% of my thoughts. Anyway... I guess this is how I'll group things. @drvonkitty @ZekromFan57: let me know if I'm remembering anything wrong or if I missed any context.

--------------------

PRESENTATION
POSITIVES: I'm gonna be honest, y'all blew this case's presentation out of the water. So many little touches that made the case so much nicer to play (especially audio-wise) -- the HQ sound effects, the way you used music fades and made the music quieter in sections where Athena needed to make decisions, even the way you handled text speed. And not to mention the graphics for the Mood Matrix, which were so smoothly integrated and beautiful to look at even when every emotion was in overload. Visually and aurally, this case is my favorite on AAO that I can think of because of those little, beautiful polishes.
You also had good custom music choices, though not all of them I would say are ideal -- but still solid. Choosing to speed up 999 music for Kingson was a fantastic choice, possibly my favorite. (You made Extreme Extrication into a Suspense theme and not a Core! And Foreboding as a character theme was very compelling.)
This could go under gameplay or characters too, but I'll put it here: Athena's Mood Matrix popping up after lines of dialogue and assessing characters' emotions is such a wonderful way to communicate how they're feeling to the player. Since Ace Attorney's DS games have static sprites that don't vary in expression as much as games with detailed 3D models that get lots of close-ups and different poses/facial expressions, a lot of non-visual communication is necessary when it comes to characters' emotions -- especially emotions they're masking that don't match their expressions. Ace Attorney sprites by their nature usually can't communicate the difference between "looks happy, is happy" and "looks happy, is actually effed up inside", since with the early games, sprite poses were limited due to (I presume) both disk space and artist labor. While choosing the right sprite poses, having fanmade sprites, and being creative with what sort of complex emotions you use a character's base poses for (e.g. using Alita Tiala's "nervous" sprite for an OC saying the line "Oh my GOD, will you leave me alone?!" when canon Alita would've used one of her more dismissive-looking sprites) is very important, a lot of emotional communication comes from reading between the lines of a character's dialogue, the protagonist's inner monologue/impressions of a character, and auditory effects like music. The Mood Matrix popping up as it does in this case adds a VISUAL element that isn't just a character's sprite/pose, and this does so much when used properly and not excessively, which y'all executed almost masterfully. I'm going to use this for an Athena case someday, if you don't mind.

thank you!! i've come a long way in terms of my skills with things like art, music, etc, in large part thanks to making these cases. i think presentation can be overrated sometimes (i'd rather play a poorly-presented case with a lot of heart as opposed to the alternative) but i do also think it's important to set the vibes and help make the emotional beats impact the player effectively. also, i'd love to see you use the mood matrix assets! sk gave me permission a while ago to share them (i posted on the art forum) so feel free!! mood matrix is great, like you said, for using mid-convo to get a sense of a person's emotional sense, and it also helps develop athena's character, too.
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NEGATIVES: This is enhanced somewhat by the fact that I play long cases quickly, so I didn't spend much time on most text frames, but nevertheless, some songs played for too short of a time before stopping or being replaced with another theme. I find this to be a grating feature of a number of AAO cases, especially ones like (as a more extreme example, and no shade whatsoever) TTT or Turnabout Revolution that act as standalone, grand cases -- because they often cycle through a lot of different tracks in quick succession, ending up with a soundtrack the length of a full game's despite being only one case. This case isn't as long as those and doesn't use 40 different tracks -- but it does shift between them rapidly sometimes, which ended up being a bit jarring in those moments. Like, "hey, I was just getting excited...".
Also, I liked JVC's theme as a standalone, but especially with the vocal shouts, I didn't enjoy it in this case given the rest of the soundtrack. I would've loved to still hear a sort of cool guitar-y theme for him, just a fully instrumental one, and maybe one with a closer style to the rest of the soundtrack.
I did notice a few typos and things like that that weren't too bad, but did take me for a loop (though I am definitely on the sensitive side with spelling and grammar). Unfortunately, I can't remember any examples other than that calling Phoenix "Trucy's adopted dad" in his profile, as opposed to "adoptive", is absolutely hilarious because that implies that Trucy adopted HIM as her dad and not vice versa.
There were a few inconsistencies with Athena's European interjects (like using ß in scheiße sometimes, but spelling it "scheisse" other times, or flipping the order of adjective and noun, like "Cómodo Palacio", which to my understanding isn't accurate to Spanish, which goes noun-adjective). Though, this also goes with saying that most of the Spanish interjects seemed fine to me grammar-wise. I'm not a native speaker, but I learned Spanish for about 6 years in middle/high school and took a semester in college as well, so take that as you will.

yes, i feel the same about the music tbh and i've never quite known how to nail it. i struggle with prolonging the "objection" and "pursuit" themes enough to make the music last long, since i always run into characters exhausting their arguments quite quickly. i'd love to hear thoughts from others on how they handle this bc it's a weakness of mine for sure.
grammar/typos are probably the result of me often writing large chunks in short periods of time and overlooking them when i play things back. on the non-english phrases that athena uses... i'll be honest, i was a bit lazy and used google more than i should have, LOL. i'm sure there are lots of embarrassing mistakes that a native speaker of any of the utilized languages could identify.
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GAMEPLAY/MYSTERY
POSITIVES: You made investigation scenes quite fun to play through, actually. A common opinion on AA games is that the investigations are more difficult to make engaging -- in my opinion, part of this is because it's hard to balance changing scenes quickly enough to keep things interesting and staying in one place long enough to learn new information. (If you move around too quickly, things feel very rushed, and if you spend too long in one place without other engaging factors, it's easy to get bored.) I can't speak with absolute certainty to what worked here because I feel so many of these things are subconscious, but I would say that you balanced the time spent in each location well, you introduced a lot of new information at a good pace without using too much evidence or infodumping, and you made good use of music and backgrounds to keep each area feeling fresh. Using Widget for a Psyche-Lock equivalent mechanic was a fantastic choice, and it 100% is something I'd implement in an Athena game.
Trial sections were also interesting despite being standard fare outside of Athena's Mood Matrix -- a subtle but important part of this is that you never increased the penalty bar too much, even when Kingson showed up, so tension built at a good pace until the ultimate penalty part. Otherwise, I appreciate being able to press and present during Mood Matrix testimonies, which I feel is something DD should have absolutely had. You also paced things well (even during the final trial, which was very long) -- and I think Athena put it best when she said that she was relieved she didn't have to spend three testimonies getting Larry to crack. You avoided the issue of making too many testimonies just to keep things going, which makes things confusing and hurried (as cross-examinations are *supposed* to be "sit down and think for a bit" sections for players).
thank you!! investigation design is something i focused on improving for web, and part 3 was definitely me trying to push my limits in terms of non-linearity and exploration. widget also helps a lot as a psyche locks stand-in, too.
i also intentionally tried to compress testimonies down and add multiple contradictions/details into each cross-exam. the athena joke is actually a meta joke since larry was originally supposed to have more testimonies!
This is harder for me to judge because of how quickly I played, but even at my speed (which, trust me, was speedreading half the time), I kept up with the logic/mystery of the case quite well. I feel like y'all did a good job of making everything make sense -- a good way to measure this for a case is by seeing how well I can explain the backstory/general mystery after playing. In this case, I can say that it wouldn't be too hard for me to get all the major bits in.
Having Widget give us a rundown of what to do at the beginning of Part 3 was very useful, and being able to go back to the WAA and present him was a godsend.
Also, the twist with Kingson not actually being the Dark Ace Killer despite ALL OF THE FREAKING LEADUP OF HIM ACTING LIKE THE FINAL BOSS, and his sudden death, was very very good. I think that was when I was like, "wait... this might not be the only Ace of Turnabouts sequel"... which did explain a few things.
Oh, and fantastic fantastic job having Larry come back all of a sudden to declare that he got Franziska to help him out and confirm Albert Jenner as an Interpol agent. This was so smart. Franziska obviously didn't need to be connected to this case's plot to make it work, since she was originally only hinted at by Larry when he talked about his picture books, but the fact that that then BECAME RELEVANT was so clever.
this wasn't planned actually--it was one of those "this piece of info comes out" things that you write in an outline and then fill in the details as you write. i felt like larry needed a classic larry moment where, despite being quite shitty, he swoops in and helps save the trial.
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NEGATIVES: The biggest negative that comes to mind is that I was able to literally skip Cyti Lyvin in part 3 and get all of the MW-12 information (other than opening the flash drive with Phoenix) before I even visited the prison. This led to a situation where presenting the flash drive to her did absolutely nothing, so I couldn't unlock the Sorting Codes topic, and I didn't even think to present JVC's profile to her because I didn't need to. This was an issue in multiple ways, and I don't think just technically fixing this to make the conversation necessary would be enough -- even if you make the Sorting Codes conversation necessary (and I did go in the editor and read it), this case is made for players who have already seen AA4 and AA5, who will know the general format for police sorting codes because of UR-1. Yes, it's definitely possible that some players who have only seen that one single code and haven't played any other games or been involved with the fandom will be a bit confused and may need clarification on it. But before this investigation section, the trial was adjourned with the distinct note that the Club Poker incident needed further investigation, and there's almost zero reason to return to the prison (as is shown by Kristoph's cell and Larry's office having nothing to do). So a lot of players are already going to talk about MW-12 with JVC and get that ball rolling before coming to the prison. Meaning, Lyvin's section is somehow both pointless (since Lyvin basically just talks about office politics) and breakable (read: flash drive), but also mandatory to trigger the Phoenix WAA scene unless I'm mistaken? I just don't think it adds anything to the plot, and unless Lyvin is supposed to be a person of interest in case 3 (which doesn't mean she couldn't have been established in a much better way), I don't see why she exists on a purely technical level. It's a shame, because as a character, I really liked her!
sounds like a bit of a bug with the investigation--we made some last minute changes here but you are right that her section is partly skippable. cyti doesn't get a huge role here, but i felt it was important to have her and james as characters to help worldbuild the PD and start to unravel some of the systemic issues therein.
The reveal of there being an accomplice was very sudden to me (it literally did happen in a few moments), and while I understand that this is at least partially intentional, going from "Kingson was evil and acting alone" for literally 90% of the last trial to suddenly having an accomplice was jarring and caught me off guard more than I would've wanted. I think part of this is just delivery (I think there was that logical sinew of "...wait, if he couldn't do this alone, then maybe he had an accomplice?", and a minute or two of thinking, missing before Athena actually *declared* he had an accomplice), but some more foreshadowing would've been nice. Maybe some things during the second investigation and trial that come up that feel improbable for Kingson to have done alone, but not impossible. Ultimately, this reveal was so sudden to me that I literally guessed Vera as the accomplice before Trucy, just because I thought, "well, he needed help with forgery, and this crime has been in planning for a long time, so maybe he commissioned Vera back in the day and used her tools now!" Then I was like, "oh. Trucy. Duh. ...Man, I forgot she was here!"
this was another last minute dvk change. originally, the thought route was meant to conclude with bringing in trucy, but i felt that was too sudden and that the trucy reveal needed to be a distinct present. so, i reoriented it around the "forgery" concept with the blue envelope, with kingson then credibly denying his ability to do such a thing, leading athena to the accomplice theory. admittedly, it's a bit out of a left field and a logical leap, and i like your suggestion about foreshadowing it better and will consider it!
This is smaller, thankfully: I feel like the section about proving that Kingson wanted to eliminate witnesses could've been a bit more clearly said. I was a little bit confused, because I thought "oh, Kingson's not testifying anymore, so NOW we can present the MW-12 evidence without violating his Fifth Amendment rights?" so I focused a lot on that. Maybe I sped too much and missed something important -- but I would've appreciated some more clarity, like: "I need to prove Kingson wanted to eliminate the MW-12 witnesses without presenting the MW-12 evidence." That would've helped me start a logic chain in my head and not just stab in the dark like I did after guessing all of the evidence Athena stole from Kingson's office. Or maybe a cryptic hint about Kingson failing to eliminate everybody without saying that out loud would've been good -- since the automatic response I had to "prove this was his motive" was "look for someone that would know this from talking to him or find evidence that he was planning something" (so Marian was like my tenth guess).
all good suggestions here since you're right about that being one of the more muddy parts of the case. thank you!
Some shorter things otherwise: I recall the "hey, I'm finished here" moments for each investigation scene not being as clear as they usually are in canon. Naturally, it's not always logical to cut the music and have the character leave, but (unless I'm remembering wrong or missing something) a lot of the time, it was just "(Oh, I'm done here. Let's go.)" and if you glanced over that by accident, there wasn't a way to get that text again.
this is one of those things that i'm very guilty of, and frankly it's mainly just because doing anything more than "ok we're done here" can be really wonky with aao investigations.

I also recall struggling to find the dinner plate in Investigation Day 1, not because it wasn't visible enough, but because it was so close to the nail polish that I thought anything else on that table would've been mentioned already -- this meant I had to hover all over the background and stare at the JavaScript frame redirect link in the corner of my window until I saw what I was missing.
this should be easily fixed!

Trucy's all-overload Mood Matrix at the end, while VERY cool, had so many plausible enough options for each emotion that I would've really appreciated some sort of hint button for each emotion that would allow Athena to think to herself a little bit -- and given that the failure dialogue was abrupt and silly (funny, but absolutely not fitting the scene), I felt a little like I was being poked fun at by the game for missing an obvious answer, even though it was a very serious moment with some very difficult choices that Athena would've struggled with as well.
fair point! the trucy mood matrix was another last minute addition that came to me in one of those "oh i'm gonna write like 1k frames today" moments, lol. i figured players might struggle with figuring out each evidence, hence why there's no penalty, but you're right about the need for more hints. tbh, i was just lazy and didn't want to do it, but at some point we ought to add custom fail convos for each emotion and have athena provide a hint.

Saying that "For Marian" was on "a label" on the bottle makes it sound like someone put a separate sticker on the bottle and wrote on that, rather than just writing on the bottle's label. So when the Thought Route said that the label must've disappeared, I was very confused. Also, the "chemicals from the grape juice washed off the label", while I did think of it first try, is a pretty stretchy conclusion (even though it is a logical one), and I can definitely see other players struggling with it a lot more. Even *I* went "huh, that was right?!" when I presented the bottle. And the next prompt -- "how can I connect the disappearing label to something weird about Kristoph's case?" -- was confusing, because the blue envelope had already been presented and I thought Athena would've mentioned the blank pages since that was obviously the main weird thing about his murder. But she didn't, so I thought I had to present something related to the pages before getting to the pens, and this left me stuck for a minute.
makes sense! this is definitely a result of me shifting things around with the thought route at the last minute.

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CHARACTERS/MOTIVES
POSITIVES: Athena was great. You really showcased her empathy in and of herself as a person without relying on Widget or her backstory to do the talking -- and she didn't need super-emotion hearing to empathize with people, or a Phantom to chase after to want to help people. She stood on her own two feet as a character. You also didn't just make her the bubbly excitable girl who shuts down when stressed. I found her Mom moments especially sweet -- "I'm trusting you, Mom!" hit me really hard and made me a little teary-eyed -- as did I her interactions with Trucy and Apollo. And your portrayal of her anxiety was very solid (though the DSM term is "panic attack", not "anxiety attack"), especially when she's yelling in her inner monologue for people to shut up while Trucy tells the judge not to yell at her because he's overwhelming her. The flashback scene of her as a child was absolutely wonderful (with one issue which I'll mention in the negatives). Also, her absolutely hilarious language interjects! "ME CAGO EN LA LECHE!!!" and "Tu puta madre." absolutely SENT me to hell.
thank you!!! i really wanted to write a case where athena really got to shine with actual agency in the story, rather than being a generic protag. i was a bit nervous writing about her anxiety--both bc i think mental health is one of those things that people can understand very differently based on their own lived experience, and also bc it's an ace attorney fancase, lol. interestingly, my use of "anxiety attack" is intentional since i didn't feel as though athena's "freeze/anxiety" moments were indicative of a full-blown panic attack. they're really more dissociative episodes triggered by intense anxiety, as opposed to panic.

Apollo was great as well. He showed a very mature, truly "lawyer-y" side of himself that you never get to see in canon AA because canon AA is very flashy. The way he speaks in court and uses actual legal terminology without sounding pretentious and purple prose-y is really well executed, and it shows his professionalism in a very clear way. In his individual interactions, I love how you had him flirt with Athena without really actually flirting with Athena -- just giving leading comments and things like that. (Or maybe he was flirting and I'm just aromantic, but I don't think that they should be flirting at 19 and 24, especially with Athena's hypersensitivities. Speaking from experience here -- he acts like her superior at work despite not even working with her or trying to be a mentor figure. But that's a good thing, again showing how much more professional he is than Athena because of his experience.) I also appreciate that you went to a lot of effort to make him a much more serious character tonally and kind of a brooding guy without making him an "edgy AU character" like a lot of fanworks do. (For an extreme example, see Underfell.) He also clearly has a heart -- my favorite example of this is him suddenly saying that he'll allow Trucy to be called as a witness if Athena moves on from the bloody ace card, which (even if he's not happy about it) protects BOTH Phoenix and Trucy from serious harm that could come from presenting forged evidence in a trial. That took some serious balls, especially given how emotional and afraid he knew Trucy would be while testifying. I'd date this Apollo. Hands down. Er -- hands interlocked? I mentioned in the Case Developers server that talking to Apollo face-to-face, especially with the sprite poses where he's smiling a little bit, feel like he's a love interest in a dating sim, in a good way. Because he didn't feel like a love interest for Athena, in my opinion, but rather it was just that he gave off kind of a "he's got a sweet side" vibe, and it was really endearing. I think Athena put it best when she asked if he thought they could be friends in another world (THAT LINE CAME STRAIGHT FROM AVATAR THE LAST AIRBENDER AND I LOVE THAT DAMN SHOW WITH MY WHOLE BABY HEART! BLESS AANG AND ZUKO), and his response was "I can only hope".
really glad you liked apollo!! i wanted to show that, while his philosophy as a lawyer and relationships have evolved, and he's taken on a colder, more "dark" persona, he's still the same dorky lovable guy with a big heart underneath it all--athena talks a lot about how trauma can bury those parts of us deep down, but it can never take them away fully. the stuff about the dating sim/chemistry with athena is amusing to me, and i think it's probably a consequence of me wanting to write him to be likeable as a intentional subversion of the expectation for him to be an edgy AU character, which does end up giving him a bit of a "love interest in a dating sim" vibe. i agree that he isn't ever really flirting with her, more just engaging in banter, and tbh i don't plan on them getting together. i view my version of athena as aro/ace personally, though obv they aren't my characters and i don't have a problem with people shipping them as they desire so long as all involved are consenting adults ofc.

i also really wanted to lean into the idea of apollo and athena having this clear burgeoning friendship that isn't allowed to be due to their defense/prosecution rivalry, which as you mention is laid out explicitly in their final scene together. i love the idea of characters desperately wanting to be friends but held apart due to circumstances outside their control. aang/zuko is a fantastic example of the trope i was going for, so that's super validating!!

I'd say you handled Phoenix pretty great. He's not the most standout character (which is GOOD -- he steals Athena's spotlight in canon AA, and he and Apollo take on so many important cases she could've handled), but he's consistently characterized, and the whole "is he using me, isn't he using me" thing is a very accurate dilemma with him. A subtle thing I like is that when he takes the co-counsel bench with Athena in Part 4, he starts off just getting into a shouting match with Apollo before he starts toning it down and really starting to act like an assistant... which gave me this itch in the back of my head that was like, "is he hogging the spotlight a little bit again?", which I think could be taken as feeding into the "is he using me?" thing. Though it could also be a writing quirk that he got that attention, whether negative or positive. I also love that he got FURIOUS at the end with Athena going after Trucy and got himself kicked out of court for it -- and probably won't forgive her for a while, even though Trucy herself is happy everything happened.
i have tons of thoughts & i'm waiting for someone to criticize phoenix's characterization so i can post several paragraphs rambling about why he does what he does, but i'm glad you enjoyed him!! this is not the conclusion of phoenix's arc by any means, but a lot of how i handled him is rooted in my opposition to hero-worshipping tropes. he's a good guy at heart, but he's still just a guy with plenty of flaws like anyone else.

Trucy is very nice as usual, and I liked a lot of her banter with Athena. And her emotions were so well handled at the end, and I think it was great how y'all brought up her sort of compulsive need to self-sacrifice and be there for others as well as all of her anger, sadness/grief, and even happiness related to this case and the Misham trial (her being happy about Kristoph's death is so f*cking human, god). I just wish she got a little bit more spotlight in the first two parts, though, because I can't say I remember too much of her appearances early on, other than some banter and encouragement.
good points all around here. her absence from part 3 and most of part 4 is really a consequence of how i felt she'd behave as a character, even tho it is a detriment to the narrative since i think having her be the full-time assistant is better for the overall narrative. i just felt that trucy was too clever not to work out that her invisible ink was part of the scheme, and that once she did, she would immediately run away and hide from athena. i love her character so much and would be happy to chat more about how and why i wrote her, but you are absolutely spot-on with your interpretation of how she's handled in the end.

This case has my favorite handling of Larry (not like that not like that not like that) that I've seen. You actually managed to present him as a loser and also make that a funny thing he gets ribbed for without making me utterly frustrated by him because all he does is swoon over women and be a roadblock. I also appreciate that he gets smacked back for flirting with Athena (which is VERY creepy given their ages, and I don't condone that shit whatsoever -- but you handled it well AND made it funny). I laughed at his appearance! I know other people find more positivity in his canon appearances than I do, but I just find him "ugh", especially as... let's just say, a victim. He usually sets me off, so well done making him fun.
wow, i'm a little surprised on this one! i struggled with larry as it is hard to balance him being this sexist loser creep with this aspect of his personality (mainly in AA1 as he gets increasingly flanderized in later appearances) where he clearly has at least some good in heart of hearts! that's the basis for his role in this case--he's portrayed as this mega loser as most people see him, which ends up being a major part of his narrative since he hits "rock bottom" and has a classic larry moment of lucidity and self-awareness at the end. he's also meant to highlight the importance of processing issues and going through a healing process utilizing therapy, etc, with athena telling him that he can't change his past mistakes but he can change the future by recognizing he has a problem.

i wanted to include his sexism but make very clear that it wasn't okay and have the characters (especially athena) lambast him any time he did it, even though it was played as a joke on several occasions. i think the casual misogyny and sexism in the AA series (especially takumi's games, as much as i like his writing) is a serious problem, and i wanted to make sure it was clearly condemned in this case even though it is a core part of larry's character.

I like how much you toned down Klavier's "showbizness", and his occasional singing really took him from "glamorous rockstar prosecutor" to "slightly aloof unprofessional person".
JVC is pretty sweet. I kind of interpreted him always looking downwards as intentional eye contact avoidance despite knowing that his sprite set's just like that. He had some awkwardness that, although I'll be addressing it in the negatives since I didn't like parts of it, really fits that sort of "autistic guy who isn't the most socially skilled but gets along with people" vibe in my opinion. That made me happy. Athena intentionally triggering him to get him angry at the corruption in the force is a good callout of his seeming aloofness about being on the force to do justice AND an effective, nuanced, morally questionable tactic. Great job with that.
i like your interpretation of JVC and wave my magic canon wand to make "autistic guy who isn't the most socially skilled but gets along with people" true!

It was nice to see Oleg again. I don't have anything negative to say about him -- he was funny. I liked his Wiktionary joke.
Vibes Girl was cool, and I liked her smile. Not much to say, though, but I'm excited to see her again in case 3. She made me happy.
I liked Cyti Lyvin's personality a lot despite her brief and frankly not really necessary appearance. Terrible name pun, though.
i mean, she DOES live in the city, sooooooo...

Marian Jir... mixed feelings, but I do like how much you humanize her, despite her being a b*tch in case 1. I think Athena identifying her barriers and safety mechanisms and still treating her kindly despite putting her through a lot was wonderful, and this spoke well about both characters.

Kingson has a strong presence when he's introduced, and his music theme definitely adds to this (in a pretty interesting way -- since usually "Foreboding" is just a suspense track, but in his case it felt more like a fearsome official presence at first).
You managed to characterize Walter van Cleef rather strongly despite him being dead this whole time. The flashback with him as judge (while literally just a still frame), and the duality of him being a corrupt bastard running a crime organization but still taking care of his son and protecting Marian, were really awesome.
this was one of those things that was borne out of a plot point (walter has this connection to marian) and ended up being a core part of the narrative. "the sides of people we don't see" is an important theme and van cleef is meant to highlight that. trying to understand people in a morally grey lens, and see that objectively bad people can do and believe good things, is one of the more difficult parts of, well, being human, and certainly any kind of writing.

Ema is great. Not much to say there. She's just great.
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NEGATIVES: I wish that at points, Athena would've been a *little* more mature. Like, she really did go too far shouting at Kingson after already being warned about penalties, and although it was very well deserved and it's in character for her in general to shout like that, given the severity of all the warnings she'd received by a certain point, it really felt like she would've exercised a BIT more self-control and not just hurled insults at the goddamn Chief Justice in open court. I also found it strange that she said she doesn't know much about evidence law, since she literally studied to be a criminal lawyer -- this and her excessive outbursts made her seem like a 16 or 17-year-old at times, not a 19-year-old. Also, some of her "Mom" moments ended up feeling forced because there was such a long gap between Trial Day 2 and Trial Day 3 that I just kind of forgot that that shadowy figure from her dream was there, and the moments when that figure showed up in her mind during the last trial day didn't feel as natural as when they showed up during her dream or when she had her Day 2 panic attack.
fair critiques! a lot of my athena characterization comes from my own hybridized headcanon version of her, where i took the things i liked about her in canon and dropped the parts i didn't, but she does end up coming off as quite youthful and impulsive (largely intentional, tbf). i do like athena being different from the other AA protags in her willingness to show emotion, especially anger, and also to lose control of those emotions occasionally because she just feels things so strongly with her heightened sense of empathy.

her lack of knowledge of evidence law is another intentional choice. she's new to the law which is part of it, but i also think athena is much more psychologist than lawyer. a lot of her lawyering tactics are rooted in her understanding of people and their emotions/dynamics, rather than pure legal skill. that's one way she's contrasted with apollo, who is way more by-the-book with an investment in rules and legal procedure. i certainly didn't want to portray athena as dumb or childish by any means, but she also struggles with imposter syndrome and quickly crumples under pressure, especially when she feels alone and/or abandoned.

I'll get back to you about Apollo. I have a lingering feeling about him. If this isn't edited out by the time I post this review, I didn't remember why.
curious to hear your thoughts! i haven't heard much negative feedback about his character yet but i have a fairly nuanced opinion of how i've written him and i do think there are some legitimate criticisms there that have played on my mind a bit.

Not sure I have any negatives about Phoenix -- I just can't say he's my favorite of all the cast (that honor goes to Apollo, Athena, . I appreciate y'all calling out how much manipulating he actually did in AA4, and not just treating him as a misunderstood good guy. He IS a good guy at heart, but he really did let his ego get the better of him when he accepted that forged evidence in the Magnifi Gramarye case (it was SO obviously suspicious and he didn't even consider vetting it), and while his intentions were honorable with the Vera Misham case, it came at the cost of using Apollo. And still didn't even work, in this case. So yay, surprise positive paragraph in the negatives section!
thank you!! i really wanted to engage with the "darker" aspect of his personality, but i also think it's important to note that my characters don't always speak for me! there are a lot of people who espouse negative opinions about phoenix, and athena gets caught up in it with this internal battle of "is he using me?", but i don't think phoenix ever has a character who gets to be the narrative voice that defends and highlights the good side of his actions. i hope to elaborate on this quite a bit more in TWAST!

Trucy... needed more spotlight, I think. I even forgot about her outburst and running out of the room in case 1 (even Zekrom reminding me what happened didn't trigger any memories, until the explicit flashback to the line "It won't bring Vera back!"), and I think a similar effect happened here. Especially since she went missing for literally almost the entire second half of the case, until the very last few testimonies -- in a way, I emotionally forgot about her getting panicked and running out of the courtroom, even though when it happened, I was very confused (in the best way), intrigued, and excited! I wish there had been more time spent in Part 3 reflecting on Trucy, because even though there were moments of Athena feeling like something's missing from her investigation with Trucy gone, the actual reason for her disappearance doesn't really come up for a while to my recollection. It's a shame, because the exact phrasing/tone she used before running off (it was like, "...I have to go!" rather than "...I-- I have to go...") subtly gave off the impression that she was hiding something, rather than just stressed out/triggered or remembering something painful. I really wish that had been addressed more explicitly before the sudden reveal that she was Kingson's accomplice. On another note, I feel like Athena's implying that she needs Trucy, while sweet in some ways, was taken a little bit far -- unless I'm mistaken, Athena's 19 by this point, and Trucy is 16. They make great friends and are very sweet, but again, with Athena having already finished law school and Trucy still being in high school, any sort of dependency is already iffy, much less Athena being the one to depend on Trucy. I think this more of a matter of delivery than of any intended power dynamics, though, and I would've just lightened the way Athena talked about Trucy's presence/optimism/support so it didn't sound like Athena couldn't function in an investigation without her -- just that it's harder without such a positive presence like Trucy's.
i agree that, as much as she carries the emotional impact of the finale, she doesn't get much of an opportunity to shine in the case outside of that. part of this was intentionally putting trucy in the background to foreshadow this mysterious secret she's hiding, while also not having her play a huge role that either tips the player off too much, or makes her actions look OOC in retrospect. the running off thing was an addition to the case based on enthalpy's feedback on ace of turnabouts--in the original release she doesn't get expelled from the courtroom, so that could possibly be why you don't remember if you played before it was featured.

not sure i agree with you on athena's dependency. i think athena still functioned well in part 3 without trucy, but she does certainly feel trucy's absence, which plays into one of the triggers of athena's anxiety being her fear of being alone. trucy, being so empathatic, is really supportive (e.g. when she tells everyone to stop yelling at athena) and thus her absence is striking to athena. i don't really think it's a dependency or anything other than them quickly becoming close friends given how similar their lives and perspectives are.

Larry... as much as I said a lot of good things about him, I think the creep thing was a little bit overdone. Again, issue of delivery, as he was rightfully called out by the story, but there were some parts where I went "ew". I think my main issue with this is the juxtaposition of him, as a 33-year-old (side note: I think his intro scene says he's 34 but his profile says 33), flirting with Athena, a 19-year-old, and Phoenix then saying he's down on his luck but has a heart of gold. This isn't something I want to get highly technical about since that wouldn't be productive, but suffice to say that it's sometimes easy for moments like this to pass over someone's head (especially with AA character designs not always being age-accurate and Larry's sprites being from T&T when he's 25), but when you think about them for a moment, they become a lot more gross. Even though Larry does have a mini-development arc, and I do love and appreciate this (especially when he chooses to become helpful, followed by "I could almost kiss you!" "Really?" "No." "Aww..." -- which was funny and cute, as Athena might have actually kissed him on the cheek if he wasn't a creep, LOL), it didn't feel like he totally earned it. My personal choice would've been to not have Larry flirt quite as hard with Athena (and also maybe not call her and Trucy "lovely ladies", even as a collective, given his history), and to be more critical of Phoenix speaking so well of him (Athena: "What does he SEE in that guy?!"). But this isn't to say that I don't think morally gray characters like Larry should be morally gray! This is just my perspective on how his morality should've been framed. On another note, his confession scene in Part 2 was... overly mopey, in my opinion. He didn't need that much focus, even though he is a canon character and there's merit to giving him some of that spotlight even in a case where he has a relatively minor role. I felt it detracted from the severity of the situation, and would've appreciated it if the amount of time spent on his confession was cut in short and didn't use quite as sad of a reminiscence theme.
as i mentioned above, larry's whole thing is meant to be a bit of a meta joke on his flanderization as a character. in AA1, he is very much portrayed as having a heart of gold despite his loser and sexist tendencies. that is quickly lost through the rest of the games as his character becomes an asshole with constant misogyny and creepy behavior. so, the larry is web is meant to lean into that flanderized side of him, with athena's therapy sessions slowly revealing his deep insecurities about how "bad" he's let himself become, and his self-awareness of his shittiness.

again, the flirting with athena is meant to be played off as a joke but still whole-heartedly condemned by the narrative + characters, with him at the end admitting he's been a creep and apologizing (and hopefully seeking more therapy to better himself!) that being said, i don't think i handled him super well and he's probably my second least favorite character in the case. imo he's well-written for what he is, but his arc doesn't land quite how i hoped it would tbh.

Klavier really needed more spotlight. He is the only living person left from the Misham Trial that isn't one of the WAA cast or the judge. It's such a shame that he didn't get to really see the light of day (and this was lampshaded, too, with him saying at the beginning of Part 4 that he hopes he doesn't get forgotten, or something, during the trial). I would've loved to see some more hints at his mental instability -- because frankly, someone who's given up on life and turned to lust and parties, while they often will present as generally stable at first, will have cracks that show. I liked his singing because it felt like a hint at this unstable, broken side of him that came out after the Misham Trial, but on its own, in a vacuum, it was easy to just feel like he was aloof and maybe a bit sleep-deprived, rather than truly and deeply struggling. Klavier's a hotshot with what I would say is a bit of a thrill-seeking personality, and now that he doesn't have his healthy ways of seeking those thrills (his rockband got all effed up, and he stopped prosecuting), he's using destructive methods to do it, and I really wanted to see some of the effects of that on him beyond just him behaving less excitably and singing sometimes. Since he only has so many front-facing sprites, and only one serious-looking one, I can see how that was a problem -- and Athena's Mood Matrix visuals popping up to communicate his emotions did help. I just felt disconnected from Klavier at the end of the day, and wish that he was explored more. Maybe a couple of sprite edits on top of all of the other new visuals this case had would've helped as well -- if you're creative about it, you can use the same base pose for a character's body and just edit their eyes/eyebrows/mouth slightly in a few different ways to communicate a bunch of different emotions. This would've been great for Klavier, I think -- and he has three different base body poses to work with!
100% agree--klavier is my least favorite characer in the case by far. part of this is that i struggled to write for him, as i've never had a strong grasp on his "voice" in the way i do for a character like apollo, athena, etc. i felt better about it as i improved and edited along the way, but i never quite found my "voice" for klavier and as a result didn't put much spotlight on him. we do see a bit of his character--he very much puts on a facade which we see cracks in, but never underneath--and ofc we get the development from kingson about klavier letting himself go. i agree that some custom sprites making him look a bit more disheveled, maybe bags under his eyes, etc, would help develop that part of his character visually.

he's also a victim of the case becoming so damn long, lol. there's never really any place to naturally fit in a big character moment for him. i'd love to have had an athena therapy session where we delve into the complexities of his relationship with kristoph, his trust issues, his tendency to hide behind a persona, etc, but idk where it would've fit. maybe as a mood matrix puzzle in one of the investigations, but i'm not sure. even so, i'm not sure i have a good enough grasp on his character to do him justice! it's unfortunate, especially since he's the defendant and should have a hefty role in the emotions/stakes, but ultimately i think things fell flat on that one.

JVC, while sweet and a great guy, I think was overplayed a bit in his casual interactions. (His Widget conversation and the parts about his dad smuggling the cocoon are great and I don't have anything bad to say about those.) I felt weird about just how hyped he and Athena were about him being a cop that cares about the job and justice and all that stuff. While I am very anti-the-current-state-of-USA-police and pro-reforming-things-so-the-police-do-their-freaking-jobs-and-don't-abuse-people, understand that I don't mean this as a criticism of JVC's enthusiasm (and Athena's excitement in response) in and of itself. I think it's refreshing that we have just this nice guy that is excited about his job and wants to help people -- that's totally fine. But I think that, even with my "socially awkward" interpretation of him, there was too much of it. Given the theme of governmental corruption in this case, it felt kind of tone-deaf for him and Athena to be like "I wanna do justice on the force!" "Amen, brother!" when his dad was literally the "open secret that he's corrupt" Chief Justice and helped him with being on the force. Athena's excitement in particular felt weird, given her other moments where she acts aware and critical of things like poor healthcare or infrastructure ("damn, these roads are confusing!" moment). I suppose that I wouldn't actually change much about JVC's scenes, but just reduce Athena's "amen!" responses (because those just seemed unnatural, even if she was attempting to mirror JVC), as well as make some minor edits that cast a side glance at his enthusiasm and why it's so pure despite him knowing about the corruption on the force. Is it a good thing that his heart's so pure despite all the darkness around him, is it a bad thing that he doesn't seem to think about the role his dad played in his own job, is it both? Having JVC question this a bit would feed into the running theme of power and corruption and make him a more prominent character with a bit of development as a treat. It's hard to nuance these topics in fiction without sounding preachy, though, so take this rant in more of an "abstract solution" way than "you should've done XYZ", because god knows I'm not an expert on this.
tbf, the systemic flaws in the PD/justice system in the AA universe are a major focus here, and by no means did i want to portray them positively! however, when athena meets JVC, she finds it quite refreshing to talk to someone who expresses this genuine sentiment of wanting to pursue justice and the truth within his job as a detective, and i also think they subconsciously relate to each other a bit, too. he also shows the complexities of the law and its corruption too, with his incuritis and having to rely on his criminal father to survive. it's meant to be a complex and confusing situation, and my intention was absolutely for players to feel some of that dissonance through his character.

worth noting is that i don't think he benefited from nepotism in getting his job as detective. it's implied that others believe that to be the case, but the only established influence his father had on his career was the cocoon smuggling.

I don't have the above issue with Cyti Lyvin (since she's not a product of nepotism) or canon Bobby Fulbright (ditto, and disregarding the Phantom thing, he's also got a comedic impact to him that I don't think JVC has). No complaints about Lyvin, other than that she really could've used a couple more specific evidence reactions besides the "damn, I didn't know WVC was a blackmailer" thing.
I didn't lie when I said I had nothing bad to say about Oleg.
No complaints about Vibes Girl. Excited to see more of her.
Marian... It's hard to explain. I wish she had a bit more of a bridge between her b*tchiness and how she acted in the finale. I fully understand why she is the way she is until the middle of case 2. I just suppose that -- and I don't know if I'm able to explain specifically why -- the transition from her point A to point B starting in Investigation Day 2 felt a bit clunky, and maybe a bit sudden. I think maybe part of it is because she wasn't involved with the first half of case 2, which meant that she popped up a bit suddenly after the trial shifted to proving Klavier couldn't have committed the Club Poker murder and Athena went to investigate. That couldn't have been avoided, and I don't know what specific points to offer in terms of smoothing that transition. The only other thing I can think of is that I remember feeling like Marian went back and forth pretty hard between "Karen" and "being stressed/traumatized" during that transition and maybe it was a bit too harsh moment-to-moment, even though the overall development was great and I loved her end result. But -- people who are this traumatized DO often have harsh mood swings and personality shifts when they're dealing with an active wound. Maybe it's just the general execution (which I can't explain), or maybe having Athena address that in her inner monologue would've helped. Maybe both. Maybe Marian was too flanderized as a short b*tch Karen before this case even began, and her starting out as that when you first see her in Part 3 of case 2 means that the slope leading down to her Part 4 self is too steep. That's what I've got -- nothing concrete, but food for thought nonetheless.
makes sense. funnily enough, marian has a pretty significant role in developing the themes of this story--"the sides of people we never get to see", "the impact of legal corruption on innocent bystanders", "emotions like anger and sadness as masks for grief and trauma", and so on. admittedly, part of this was wanting to dunk (jokingly) on enthalpy for criticizing her for being one-dimensional in ace of turnabouts. so, we wanted to deepen her character her and try and explore the way in which her anger/perfectionism are really masking a lot of pain and grief, much of which was put upon her by no fault of her own. ofc, even post-reveal she's meant to still have a bit of that karen side to her, lol.

it was hard to make that transition happen naturally through dialogue--plus i was worried about athena doing too much "telling" rather than showing--but you're right about what i was intending with her overall development, even if it didn't land exactly how we might have wanted.

Kingson was... lacking for me. I think he was nice and daunting when introduced, but he got so little screentime between then and Trial Day 2 that he just became this sort of shadowy background figure. While this worked in some ways (it allowed people to openly doubt whether he was a good successor while talking to Athena), having so little presence after such an intimidating introduction was jarring in my opinion, and he didn't get any characterization outside of his job. I wish that he would've had some of the same expansion that WVC did when it was revealed that he smuggled Borginian cocoons to save his son, and was genuinely protective of Marian and her father (or was it Kingson's father?). That's not necessarily to say that I think Kingson should've been portrayed in a "he's corrupt and cruel but has a good side to him" way like WVC, because maybe he is just a terrible, awful guy -- but I would've appreciated more depth and nuance, and seeing or hearing what he's like outside of his element. What's Kingson like outside of his job as Chief Justice and that one scene we see of him being a prosecutor years ago? Does he ever mention his family, friends, connections? I just want to know more about him, and have him appear more between when you meet him and when you accuse him of a series of murders. And hell, even within his job, I would've loved to see him interact with JVC (who literally later helps Athena break into his office), and maybe Cyti Lyvin in the prison hallway and Klavier in the detention center. He would've been such a good effing roadblock to Athena's investigation -- the same way that he sent Ema on a wild goose chase in Part 3 without explicitly revealing his intentions, he could've done that to Athena, and she could've wondered if that's why Ema was so winded in the five seconds she got of Part 3. And I would've loved more than one short scene between Kingson and Apollo -- there was clearly a LOT to their relationship, what with Apollo being called "zealot" and tolerating way too much of it. We saw the fallout of their relationship as Apollo went against him in Part 4, but not much of the substance OF their relationship before that happened. Y'all already chose a great sprite set and great music for Kingson, and gave him a strong presence -- he just needed follow-up to make him a well-rounded character and not a one-note villain who disappears during most of the action. This is probably the best example of why I feel like this case's first few parts should've been made longer, rather than the last part being made shorter, to resolve the length discrepancy between parts.
all good points, and honestly i wish i had that idea for the second investigation before i wrote it bc it would make total sense for him to show up and act as a roadblock to athena! instead, i had him try and schmooze athena early on but then effectively ghost her and give her the cold shoulder the second she defied him, but as a result he didn't get much time to shine between his introduction and his villain reveal in part 4.

you're right that kingson is a fairly one-note, straight-up evil villain, though part of that was meant to highlight just how deeply corrupt the legal system is. he's meant to be a foil to van cleef--both are criminals, but in different ways, with clashing motivations and "moral" codes. kingson is meant to be the prime example of a sleazy, completely amoral lawyer who uses his legal expertise for nothing but selfish gain. does he have more depth and a "side we never get to see"? sure, but in some ways that's one of the points of the story. we'd never have seen the depth to walter and marian's characters without the chance to explore it in this case, and they both seem pretty one-dimensional at first appearance, too. so maybe kingson does have a lot of depth--we just never get to see it! that being said, i certainly could have done a better job implying that. zekrom originally intended him as more of a "it's just business" criminal, while i took him down a more explicitly evil route as i characterized him further.

No negatives about Ema. (Well, other than the fact that she got a whole five seconds of Part 3 despite there clearly being something wrong with her -- even if she didn't explicitly appear again in that part, Athena could've at least wondered/worried about her later on -- see my Kingson negatives.) Love her, would die for her, I'd be sapphic platonic girlfriends with her.

--------------------

I was going to have a "STORY/OTHER" section, but I think most of my story positives/negatives were broken down into either the mystery or the characters and their motivations, so I'll spare you, humans. I only have one thing to add that isn't about either of those things, and that's the humor.
The humor was hit or miss for me, though it was 75% hit. The hits were moments like "Nyeh! I'm Apollo and I think evidence is everything! Nyeh nyeh nyeh!", "No, they were not going to eat the bottle, Your Honor", and Larry having a total mopey shitshow of a confession and being scolded by everyone, then just going "Butz out!" and disappearing. Athena's language outbursts were hilarious, and a good way to get out frustration without just swearing a ton in English and making things feel overly stressful for an AA case. This case overall did a great job of breaking up a lot of tense moments with sudden and simple jokes and silly moments, and it timed a lot of those breaks well, making me feel some well-needed relief before going in for the killshot evidence present.
glad to hear at least some of them landed, LOL!! aa humor can be very hit or miss tbh and it's really hard to pull off, especially in a way that's generally funny for most audiences

The fourth wall breaks were disappointing, though, most of the time. Most of them were contrived and very specific mentions about AA being a game and this case being an alternate universe. Oleg's Wiktionary joke is an exception to this, because an equivalent of Wiktionary surely exists in AA world (the WAA has a website, LOL), so the argument made total sense and was very funny, as well as in-character for Athena's inner language nerd. The first half of Trucy's "I don't want to deal with all of Ema's gameplay!" joke made me laugh, but was dampened by her doubling down and becoming more specific in her next line, instead of just leaving Athena to be like, "...gameplay?" (and maybe Trucy to be like "sorry, poor phrasing" or something).

The other disappointing part of the humor was that most of the failure dialogues I saw were just silly quips, which is definitely in character for canon AA, but given how seriously the "main progression" of this case takes itself, while some silliness in failure dialogue was welcome, sometimes it was immersion-breaking or felt a bit excessive to joke around during some of the really serious "present evidence"/"prove your point" moments. In one or two cases (like Trucy's Mood Matrix at the end), it just felt mean to both the characters and the player to have the failure conversation be, like, "hee hee you failed so Athena looks stupid!" -- because in those situations, Athena's not going to say some out-of-pocket crap like "turn that frown upside-down?" to Trucy in the middle of her being absolutely choked by her emotions.
fair point--failure convos tend to be something i throw together with minimal thinking, but i can see how that can create frustrating tonal dissonance at a moment like trucy's mood matrix! this is an area i ought to go throw and revamp to balance the humor a little better.

Thankfully, those two issues with the humor of the case were infrequent (and arguably non-canon for the failure conversations, though I would argue otherwise, since this is a VERY difficult case and Athena not slipping up even once throughout the whole thing is highly unlikely). Like I said, 75% hit and 25% miss, and the hits were FANTASTIC, so I'm happy to say I laughed my ass off a few times during this case. Like, "lost my shit" laughed.
a 75% is a pass, so i'll take it!!!

--------------------

I can't underemphasize how much I enjoyed playing this case and am excited for case 3. Remember again that all this feedback is here because I got really immersed in this case -- which is an awesome accomplishment. I was never bored, and that alone says a lot.

thank you very much for taking the time to write such a detailed review! i love hearing when people play it, even if their feedback is brief/all positive, but i especially love reading reviews like these because it can teach me so much about my writing, and also about how people can see things that i never would've expected and certainly didn't intend as an author. plus, it can be fun to argue with certain critiques when i disagree--almost all of your criticisms here have been ones that i understand and can even echo myself, but if someone were to come in here and say "phoenix was ooc when he had his meltdown over trucy" for example, you better believe i'll respond with multiple paragraphs about why they're wrong, LOL.

always happy to chat more about the case and some of the decisions in here, and to answer questions too. both zekrom and i poured a lot of love and effort into this case, but i have no doubts that it has some serious flaws! that's the beauty of this sort of thing tho--i can go back and play my very first aao case (the origin of the name "Starstrum", btw) and it's amazing to see how far my writing has come, while still recognizing that i have so much room to grow and learn still. so i sincerely appreciate you helping with the growing and learning by writing such a great review!!!
Hopefully y'all are able to somehow get through all of that. If you ever find it in yourselves to respond to that crapload of feedback, please do -- again, I got INVESTED in this case and would love to talk about it.

i am humbled to see you felt inspired enough to write this much about the case, and i enjoyed reading it & responding! those responses in red throughout but i'd be happy to chat more item-by-item over discord sometime too, ofc. thank you so much for playing and writing this review!!!

DeathByAutoscroll · Post by **DeathByAutoscroll** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:52 pm

Yeah this is pretty good. Don't have anything else to really say about this case other than it's pretty good, sorry...

14/11/2023 context edit: This was originally posted in the separate Ace of Turnabouts thread before they were merged.

XavierWright · Post by **XavierWright** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:55 pm

Bit of a late review since I had other stuff to do, but I'm reviewing now.

A lovely case, I got really into it, the emotions, the storytelling, the characters, all of it just got me hooked. Ace of Turnabouts did that well, this case did that with a multiplication of 20.

Well done again, you brilliant minds.

Also, I have to ask...

Spoiler : :

AshuraMage · Post by **AshuraMage** » Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:08 pm

drvonkitty wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:53 am
AshuraMage wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 3:24 am
Spoiler : Review Attempt :
Alright, this is my first time doing something like this, but I think that this case deserves it. I played Ace of Turnabouts a really long time ago, so I appreciate the brief recap since this is a sequel, so, thanks for that .
AWoT is a really unique case in its concept since it has some unique ideas that go even more far than its predecessor and still make for an interesting experience that makes me curious to see where this AU goes. It has some nice custom art, the mystery, although simple, is really complex to resolve and connect to a lot of stuff, which makes me happy, since I am a sucker for stuff that seems really simple at first glance but are more complicated than a rubik's cube. The new characters were interesting to interact with and I liked most of them a lot(probably the only one I didn't enjoy was the detective in charge of the Dark Ace Killer because she wasn't anything special, barely had any scenes and has a bad and annoying theme song that doesn't fit her at all). The story was really good and was one of the strongest I ever saw on any AA fancases/fangames.

Alright, now that I talked about the good stuff, let's talk about the stuff I didn't like.
Trial, Day 3.
Seriously, I quitted halfway through, this trial just never ends(specially compared to Trial, Day 2, that is kinda quick), has some impossible logic leaps and most of the time I was agreeing more with the villain than with Athena. For example, the entire first half of the trial is us talking about a previous incident and the only reason why I thought there was a connection with the present incident was because the protagonist kept saying there was, because if it was for myself, I seriously wouldn't have seen any connection between the two cases and it's a miracle that the judge just decided to let Athena go even though, for most of the trial, she didn't even said anything about the actual case. Comparing this to 1-5, where we also solve a previous case mid-trial, the case does a great job at showing us there is a connection between SL-9 and the current case, something that Phoenix connects very well even before solving SL-9. This doesn't happen here, most of the time Athena is just childishly claiming that there is a connection between the two cases even though she doesn't show this connection. Another point I didn't like was after the Trucy reveal, because it doesn't make any sense for her to be the forger, the game never gives us any indication that she has any crafting skills on making pen that writes with invisible ink that can reappear later or whatever, it just comes out of nowhere. And worst, after this revelation, the trial just comes into a circus. I quit after doing Trucy's mood matrix and I am not really hyped to go back and finish it. Maybe one day.

Anyway, it was a case that I was really enjoying before the second half of the second trial, so I would recommend people giving it a go, maybe they will enjoy it more than I did it.
7.5/10

sorry to hear you had a bad experience with it! some thoughts below:
Spoiler : whole trial :
weirdly enough this review is actually a little bit validating: throughout playtesting i had an inkling there would be some players who would not like the direction of trial day 3 for essentially the reasons you listed. there's definitely some core flaws with the narrative: first, it was NOT meant to be that long--i ended up being much more long-winded than i intended to be! second, the whole segment does spend most of its time focusing on or around the MW-12 incident. i'm not sure i agree with your characterization of athena's arguments tho: yeah, she's definitely stretching at a number of points since she is so legally inexperienced, but the fact that MW-12 shows a corrupt, criminal organization in the justice system and involved both victims, the defendant, and two of the key witnesses... well, there's a connection there at the very least! i'll be honest, when it comes to pacing complaints, i'm not sure i'd look to 1-5 as an example of a case that was paced well lol. it's been a while, but i recall playing through that one and thinking to myself that the case had totally veered away from the original murder and how much it seemed to drag on. i completely get how you might find that aspect of trial day 3 frustrating ofc--i'm just not sure i agree with the comparison to 1-5.

now, on trucy... oh, believe me, i could go on and on about trucy wright's character, why she did what she did in web, etc. i'll admit however that the trucy twist is something i wed myself to early on, and it ends up carrying a lot of the emotional heft in trial day 3. so, if you aren't a fan, i can understand why you'd end up quitting in the aftermath of that reveal! there's a number of controversial decisions i made around that whole portion of the trial, but personally i believe those decisions are completely within the bounds of how these characters would behave in this situation.

trucy is a really complex character that rarely gets the recognition she deserves. people see this upbeat, childish "assistant" persona that she puts on during AJ without seeing that underneath she is an extremely bright, somewhat morally dubious, character with tremendous agency. a few examples:
when phoenix introduces apollo to trucy, he describes her as a "genius". it's easy to dismiss this early on as hobo!nick being himself, especially since he and trucy are clearly screwing with apollo, but i believe phoenix 100% sees trucy as a genius. remember that phoenix met trucy when she was 8, and one of the first things he learned is that she is already a professional magician who was able to help pull off a trick that fooled the entire courtroom. at age eight! not to mention the fact that she is the reason he goes undefeated in poker for so long. he may be very good at poker, but his poker face needs work.

the fake mr. hat kidnapping in 4-2 is another great example. trucy saw a practical problem (apollo was about to lose) and, without even consulting him, staged a believable fake kidnapping that 1) used her magic, and 2) tricked everyone into believing she was in actual danger. all of that so she can tell apollo about his perceive power!

we also learn that trucy likes picking locks as a hobby. this makes sense for a magician, but given trucy's other behavior and tendency to do things like fiddling with the crime scene, taking things, etc, something tells me she may have picked at least a couple locks she shouldn't have...

the final scene in AJ where phoenix is talking about he's the only one who knows how trucy feels on the inside. ugh, i love it! SOJ tried to touch on this with 6-2, but i just don't think we ever really get to see into the complexity of trucy's character as this extremely bright teenager who suffered so much trauma in her youth and subsequently "grew up too fast". she puts on this facade of an innocent girl for others, sometimes to fool them but also to support them, but it's clear that she has so much going on beneath the surface that we don't know about. i tried my best to establish this through parts 1-3, to get the player suspicious of trucy at the very least.

and then, the bloody ace forgery. this is a fan theory that's been around for ages and i've seen some extensive arguments about it. personally, i love the theory & think it would've been established as canon if we got a direct sequel to AJ, but i also understand others who think we should take phoenix at his word that he forged the card. however, regardless of anything else, trucy is the one who pulls off the "naughty magician's trick" and at the very least would have provided the card to phoenix, even if she didn't go so far as to forge it herself. even so, making a complex invisible ink still strikes me as something within the toolset of a professional, highly talented magician. but you may disagree and that's okay!

point being: trucy is well-established in AJ as a morally dubious character, who is willing to bend the rules if she believes it's necessary to help the people she cares about. in web, we see a much more vulnerable trucy who, in light of all the struggles she's faced, is having a hard time maintaining the mask she uses to protect herself. when the killer contacted her on the website and brought up the bloody ace, then gave a story about how they wanted revenge on someone who hurt the people they cared about... well, i believe it's a completely reasonable development for trucy to get caught up in that scheme, thinking she was doing the right thing. an important distinction is that i don't really hold trucy morally responsible for it, which may also frustrate some folks, though i did try to highlight that she didn't know the person was plotting a straight-up murder. in contrast with all this talk of trucy being a genius, athena points out that trucy is still just a kid who never deserved to have all this weight and responsibility upon her shoulders. that's why athena (and frankly everyone involved) is so quick to forgive trucy for inadvertently helping with the forgery and later hiding it once she realized that was the case.

anyway! that's enough rambling for now--but hopefully that helps explain things a little bit as to the thinking behind trial day 3. even so, i understand why someone might not like it, and i apologize that was the case for you! thanks for playing & for the review--it's great to hear feedback even from those who didn't enjoy the case.

Spoiler : some clarifications :

risefromtheashes · Post by **risefromtheashes** » Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:53 am

AshuraMage wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:08 pm -snip-
Spoiler : some clarifications :
Well, reading your response made me want to finish the case, but now I actually can't cuz AAO just corrupted my save file and I am not in the mood to restart all over again, so I can't finish it
Save File
-snip-

(Post written by Alastor)
On another note, drvonkitty, will respond to your responses another time, but I have thoughts to give so keep an eye out.

drvonkitty · Post by **drvonkitty** » Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:28 pm

XavierWright wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:55 pm Bit of a late review since I had other stuff to do, but I'm reviewing now.

A lovely case, I got really into it, the emotions, the storytelling, the characters, all of it just got me hooked. Ace of Turnabouts did that well, this case did that with a multiplication of 20.

Well done again, you brilliant minds.

Also, I have to ask...

Spoiler : :
What the hell was in that document that made Butz crack like that?! I'm dying to know man, you can't leave us in suspense like this.

thanks for playing, glad you had a good time!!

Spoiler : butz theory :

AshuraMage wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:08 pm
Spoiler : some clarifications :
Well, reading your response made me want to finish the case, but now I actually can't cuz AAO just corrupted my save file and I am not in the mood to restart all over again, so I can't finish it

Now, talking about some points you made:
-About 1-5, I wasn't talking about the pacing of the case(although I thought it was fine, I can understand the problem that people have with it), I was pointing that the conection between SL-9 and the current case is made clearer and (in my opinion) in a better way than its done here. And yes, there were some dubious points about a conection, like the defense, the prosecution and the judge in the MW-12 all being involved in this case, but well, as someone even pointed out in the trial, they were doing their job, it could just have been a coincidence;
gotcha, i think i understand what you're saying better now. it's one of those difficult quirks about aa to emulate in a fancase, i think--especially since it can come across so subjectively in canon, too!

-About Trucy, I don't have any problems about her character here and her motive, I thought they were pretty believable in canon. What I had a problem was the fact that it just there's no indication that she was the one who did it, after all, the trick about the vanishing ink that later reappers through a substance(idk which substance since my save corrupted) isn't something that can really be linked to Trucy(tbh I thought at first that it was Vera and that was the reason why her profile was in the court record, like how Phoenix's profile is on the court record in 3-2 just so you can point to his fingerprints on the urn). But ignoring that, I had no problems with her character in this case.
yeah this is a fair point. she's mostly foreshadowed as having some big secret, with a few hints toward it relating to forgeries/invisible ink, but there's no smoking gun evidence that trucy is the one who made the inks. athena ultimately gets there on her knowledge of trucy's talent as a magician, plus some vibes sprinkled in there!

not related to so-called "vibes girl" ofc

responses in red! appreciate you providing those clarifications, and thanks @risefromtheashes for providing a save link--feel free to let me know how you feel about the ending, and if it improves or worsens your opinion, LOL

AshuraMage · Post by **AshuraMage** » Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:34 pm

risefromtheashes wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:53 am -snip-
Spoiler : some clarifications :
Well, reading your response made me want to finish the case, but now I actually can't cuz AAO just corrupted my save file and I am not in the mood to restart all over again, so I can't finish it
Save File
-snip-

Thank you for the save data, I wouldn't have been able to finish the case without it! So, thank you, really.

drvonkitty wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:28 pm
AshuraMage wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:08 pm
Spoiler : some clarifications :
Well, reading your response made me want to finish the case, but now I actually can't cuz AAO just corrupted my save file and I am not in the mood to restart all over again, so I can't finish it

Now, talking about some points you made:
-About 1-5, I wasn't talking about the pacing of the case(although I thought it was fine, I can understand the problem that people have with it), I was pointing that the conection between SL-9 and the current case is made clearer and (in my opinion) in a better way than its done here. And yes, there were some dubious points about a conection, like the defense, the prosecution and the judge in the MW-12 all being involved in this case, but well, as someone even pointed out in the trial, they were doing their job, it could just have been a coincidence;
gotcha, i think i understand what you're saying better now. it's one of those difficult quirks about aa to emulate in a fancase, i think--especially since it can come across so subjectively in canon, too!

-About Trucy, I don't have any problems about her character here and her motive, I thought they were pretty believable in canon. What I had a problem was the fact that it just there's no indication that she was the one who did it, after all, the trick about the vanishing ink that later reappers through a substance(idk which substance since my save corrupted) isn't something that can really be linked to Trucy(tbh I thought at first that it was Vera and that was the reason why her profile was in the court record, like how Phoenix's profile is on the court record in 3-2 just so you can point to his fingerprints on the urn). But ignoring that, I had no problems with her character in this case.
yeah this is a fair point. she's mostly foreshadowed as having some big secret, with a few hints toward it relating to forgeries/invisible ink, but there's no smoking gun evidence that trucy is the one who made the inks. athena ultimately gets there on her knowledge of trucy's talent as a magician, plus some vibes sprinkled in there!

not related to so-called "vibes girl" ofc

responses in red! appreciate you providing those clarifications, and thanks @risefromtheashes for providing a save link--feel free to let me know how you feel about the ending, and if it improves or worsens your opinion, LOL

Spoiler : Thoughts after finishing it :

Ace Attorney Online

Reduced trial manager

[T] Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney – Dark Ace Saga ★☆○○

Re: [T] A Web of Turnabouts ●

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Re: [T][CE] Ace of Turnabouts ★

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